Colorado Springs is such a creepy cracker town...and these places were the epitome of that.
Keep Colorado Springs lame!
it appears that a lot of the old farts around here are stuck in the 1950's. the summer of love was traded for the decades of hate ever since.
Bravo Kirsten, this is a lovely tribute to these great places -- and the "funeral procession" is such an apt sentiment.
@ Duwayne Anderson
You said: This is an oft-repeated lie by Mormon apologists. The Journal of Discourses is published by the LDS Church, it consists almost entirely of the preaching of Mormon "prophets, seers, and revelators," and those prophets said that the Journal of Discourses is "scripture."
I say: Yet if it were scripture that was ratified by the Church.. there would have been a vote on it in General Conference by all the people... and then would have been added to the Doctrine and Covenants. Though there are many truths that are there in the JD.. the church is not bound by its teachings. We can believe that they are true.. we can ask the Holy Ghost for confirmation.. but the people are not held accountable to those teachings. Most of was is taught in the JD.. as far as I am concerned.. are mysteries of the Kingdom of God. It might all be absolute truth.... like the earth being round.. but no one is held accountable to its teachings until confirmed in General Conference.
You said: If the Mormon Church is true, as they assert, why do Mormon apologists feel obligated to water-down the teachings of their prophets, and lie about the significance of what they said?
I say: We also see how those things that we teach are true.. but have nothing to do with salvation.. Like the star named Kolob.. how the Anti-Mormons and critics of the church walk under foot anything that is special. So.. though we need not declare outright what is in the JD as being absolute truth.. then it takes away the power of people to make light of it when we are not obligated to protect it. But mark my word.. there is much truth in those Discourses.. it is up to you to figure out which ones.
A poster commented: "While the JD is a valuable source of history and information from the time, it is not an official publication of the LDS Church."
This is an oft-repeated lie by Mormon apologists. The Journal of Discourses is published by the LDS Church, it consists almost entirely of the preaching of Mormon "prophets, seers, and revelators," and those prophets said that the Journal of Discourses is "scripture."
"I say now, when they [Young's discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 264; see also p. 95).
If the Mormon Church is true, as they assert, why do Mormon apologists feel obligated to water-down the teachings of their prophets, and lie about the significance of what they said?
I do not like the words.. "The Bible says". The Bible has never said a thing. And one need not be a "homophobic Christian" to use those words.. "The Bible says".
There are prophets, seers, revelators and Apostles who have said everything that has been compiled in the Bible.. the book of books. Men who have either seen God.. spoke with him.. received revelation from him.. or been inspired by him. Some have been taught by him, and been showed marvelous things from him. And each of these men were tasked with spreading the word of God. Whatever that word was. Whatever that idea was. Whatever that commandment was. Whatever that teaching was. There was a mixture of all of these. These are the ones who put the words in the Bible. It is these men who have said that homosexuality is a sin. And they will tell you many other things besides homosexuality are also a sin. They will combine a multitude of sins in a chapter or two or three. So don't think that because the sins are combined.. that the prophet.. or apostle is talking about something else. How convenient is that?
God's only purpose to give us rules, regulations and commandments is so that we can get back to Heaven. It is not his wish to have his children be damned. But it is the children who make the choices.. to be damned. The warnings go out. "Touch the stove.. you will get burnt." But so many make excuses as to why they need not heed the warnings. Just remember that. They are all excuses.
Actually Guru...the science is basically that the plumbing doesn't work...serves no larger purpose than eroticism.
We are no hateful for thinking this...we just think you have your wires crossed and you are not seeing the obvious.
You disagree...that's fine. But at least feel good enough about what you think not to have to attack people who think differently than you do. Celebrate a little diversity and co-exist.
Romans 1.26-7: The Bible 'Says' Homosexuality Is a Sin?
Joel L. Watts Author and Scholar
"The bible says" is often the excuse employed by homophobic Christians who believe scripture requires a condemnation of homosexuality. The bible is a neutral object. It only "says" something when we act upon it. This is why we as actors must use this prop in a Shakespearean manner and not improv it as so many do today.
In the last several decades, the use of classical rhetoric as a tool to examine the Pauline epistles has become something of an institution among New Testament scholars. Because of this, we are able to wield scripture more effectively. Equally so, there is push back from fundamentalists and conservatives who would read scripture as if they were the ones writing it, divorced from its first century Greco-Roman-Hellenistic context. It is because of this insistence we read scripture as a modern how-to guide that those who use it are likely to do so not only in error but to the harm of others as well.
A case in point is the often (mis)used passage, Romans 1.18-32. It does not take long in a discussion on scripture and homosexuality for the more traditional defender to take this out of his or her arsenal, as if it is the "nuclear option." Jesus may not have spoken directly about homosexuality, but Paul did, we are assured. However, and I relish this role as the bearer of bad news, this passage is not about condemning homosexuality, but about condemning those who condemn others.
Stanley Stowers has pictured Paul's Epistle to the Romans as a protreptic letter. Simply, this is a letter an ancient teacher would send ahead of himself to gain support once he arrived. We can easily see this, since Paul indicates he had yet to meet the Roman congregation (1.8-15). How might one do this? Paul has to establish what his Gospel, or teaching, is in contrast to what they have heard. So, what does he do? He does the same thing we do today -- we use the words of our opponents and respond to them.
In literary rhetoric, this is called prosopopoeia. It includes the creation of a character in the work to whom you, if you were writing the letter, could dialogue with. To clue the reader into this, rhetoricians established certain literary. Euripides used gar, a Greek word often translated as "for" in our English. The translators of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek (the Septuagint, or LXX) used gar to signify change of speaker as find twice in Job and over forty times in Isaiah. Would we expect Paul, a highly educated man who knew both Greco-Roman rhetoric and the Septuagint, to not have used rhetoric? If he did, we'd also expect him to use the established cues so that his readers could detect it.
As I have blogged before, Paul's use of prosopopoeia begins with 1.16-7. This is his objective statement. Everything the Apostles believes about Jesus Christ is summed up in these few words... "I am not ashamed of the Gospel... it has the power to save." Then, his opponent speaks. "Gar (for)... the wrath of God..." and goes on from there to counter that the Gentiles cannot be saved by Israel's Messiah because they are idol worships and do strange things with their bodies (1.18-32). This is a common belief among many Second Temple Jewish exegetes -- the Gentiles simply could not be saved.
Remember, this is not a duel between Jews and Gentiles about who are the best Christians, but a refrain among Jews in dialogue with one another about the role of Gentiles in the messianic age. We know that the tradition of Gentiles looked on as second-class citizens exist well into the second century when Acts was written. What we see in Romans is a conflict about group identify. This is made very clear at the end of Romans 2 when Paul loudly proclaims against his opponent that the Jew is not the one who is born a Jew (outside) but who became a Jew (inside) -- thus, Gentiles could be saved.
Not only does this passage not teach homosexuality is a sin, but it is more about idol worship and other forms of religious rituals used as examples of how awful the Gentiles are than love shared between two people of the same gender. To add to this non-homosexual issue is Paul's rather harsh words for those who see Romans 1.18-32 as a valid "truth.
In Romans 2.1, Paul answers the objections from the previous passage that Gentiles were too awful to save with the words "You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things (NLT)."
What is Paul's intent here? He does not say, "Sure, gays are bad but God can still save them." Instead, he goes on for several chapters showing all are equally lost before God, and all are redeemed. And yes, all does mean all (Romans 5). This passage is not about homosexuality, at least not in the way conservative exegetes usually pretend that it is, but about social prejudices pushing away the kingdom of God.
In the end, no amount of scholarship will sway the majority of those who view homosexuality through the lens of Victorian morality. Scholarship has yet to change the minds of Young Earth Creationists and others who hold to untenable tenants, after all. In the end, we are called to love every one and condemn no one as Paul tells us, even -- especially -- those who would misuse scripture and abuse others to their own ends.
As I have always said.. it is not being gay that is the sin.. it is the acting on it. It is having sex with a member of the same sex. That is the sin. And you know that is exactly what I was saying.
Good for you that you are celibate!! But that was not the image you have been portraying. You have lead me astray with your little deception... but that's fine. I am just happy that you have not bought into the lifestyle of the homosexual. Again.. Good for you!
No, you again Judged me and my lifestyle that you know nothing about. I'm an over 50s celibate woman, so how am I living in Sin? It is your bias attitude of all gays that keeps bringing you back to Sin Consciousness. Judge not least ye be Judged. It's not me that's going to be doing the judging, I'm just living in Love & Grace as Ephesians tells us followers of Christ to do.
And you have proved the others commentors correct: Nothing has changed in your Church and It's all a big farce! Wanna talk about how your Church is continuing to spread homophobia to other countries like Africa now that America won't listen to the crap? Thou shalt not bare False Witness!
Later dude, I've got to go to Gay Pridefest day and celebrate my Gayness!
LoL. talk about a "holier than thou" attitude. You ask questions.. I answer them.. and I have an attitude? Get over myself?? LOL. You are quite a character.
We are definitely at the point in this conversation where the discussion of what the other believes is useless. All I can say in my parting thought is you are not on the path to salvation... but damnation. And that to me is sad.
Few questions Nimrod: do your kind even believe in Jesus is Christ? And do you even read the New Testament of the Bible? And do you even know what the Passover Lamb was for? Maybe you should read a different book than the Book of Mormon, like "Jesus Christ our Passover" for starters. But if you want to stick to your "hell bent, sin conscious" attitude, you can keep it. I know what my redemption and salvation give me, and it's not what your selling brother, so you can keep your crap.
Really Nimrod! I just told you that you have your beliefs and I have mine and you go right back into I have to follow your religious dogma bullshit. Get a life dude, cause I am living mine! I didn't bother to read your stupid as rant, and I am not going to get into it with you, cause I could tear down Mormonism, but I won't. See, I can be tolerant of your lifestyle, but again, it is your Holier than Thou/ Self Righteous attitudes of these dominations that think they have the only way to Spirituality. I'm Gay, I'm a Born Again Pentecostal Christian, and I don't give a holy shitz what you fucking think of gay people. Get over yourself!
You think that because you are gay and understand what it is to be gay.. that everyone does. Remember this.. there was a time when the medical community taught that being gay was a "choice". It was a lifestyle choice. They came up with all kinds of things that attributed to a person becoming gay. They played with the wrong doll when growing up, not the right amount of affection from one parent.. too much affection from the other parent. Heck.. there were so many reasons given.. parents who had gay children were being blamed for what they had done to their child. So.. a misconception grew. And when any member of a church.. chooses.. yes.. I said chooses... to be gay.. then acceptance into the fold is not possible. You choose not to conform to the standards. Up until recently... this belief is what motivated people to do what they did. It is no different than if someone chooses to be an adulterer. If you keep on choosing adultery.. then you are not "welcomed" into the fold either. There are rules to be included. If you don't want to follow the rules.. then you don't belong. And the bigger question was.. why do you want to belong? You don't want to follow the rules.. so why belong? Seemed like someone just wanting to cause trouble.
So now.. the medical world has told us.. and many are coming to that understanding.. that being gay.. the attraction to the same sex.. is not a choice. We were told.. first it was a choice.. and now.. it's not a choice. Some are slow to change.
So yes.. hate the sin.. love the sinner. That is the golden rule of sorts. So easy to say.. so hard to feel and do. But the Lord never said it would be easy.
I realize you don't believe that your lifestyle is a sin. I realize that you believe that you can act on your impulses.. and God will still smile upon you. I realize that it is your belief that because you believe on Christ.. that all is forgiven. But.. that is not mine. Your sins CAN be forgiven... not that they are. This sacrifice that Jesus made was not a "hey I can do anything I want and still be saved" card. It is a.. I can be saved.. card. But I have to use it. When the adulterous woman was brought before Jesus.. no he did not condemn her... but what did he say to her? Go and SIN NO MORE!
Every person on this earth who is born has a "natural" man/woman inside them. My natural man wants to sleep and have sex with women all the time. My natural man is carnal and wants things that go against God's laws. I have to overcome. Christ overcame. He did not give into his natural man once. He had to rise above. Had he not chose to be perfect.. then his sacrifice would have meant nothing. Had he chosen not to partake of the bitter cup... we would not have the opportunity to be saved.
So for me... your acting out on you being gay.. which is your natural man.. is the sin. And unless you can see that.. and give that up... you will not be saved in the kingdom of God. Again.. that is my belief and you will tell me that you don't believe that.. and there we will be. So you will continue down your path.
The only way I can believe your beliefs.. is to give up mine.. and visa versa. I believe it is by the grace of God.. that we can be saved. And why is that? Because.. we can not save ourselves. Listen.. Even if I now became like Christ.. and never sinned again. I can not cleanse my book of life and erase what I have done. I can be forgiven of sin and not be punished for it.. but my record is my record. So.. I can not save myself. I still have the blotch on my record and I.. I... can not erase it. The only one who can.. is the Christ. He can erase it. He can make me appear sinless. Through his atoning blood.. he can wipe my slate clean and my book of life becomes pure and white. Then.. and only then.. can I enter the presence of God. I can do nothing to save myself. All my good works.. my praying.. my loving, my serving.. none of that.. in and of itself.. will save me. I don't have the power to raise myself from the dead. I don't have the power to wipe my slate clean. All MY works can not by themselves save me. But without them.. Christ has no reason to save me. If I am not showing him.. that I believe on his words... and to believe on his words means to do as he has asked me to do.. then he will not save me... just because he can. He says.. come follow me. I have to do. If I do nothing.. and do not obey what he has asked me to do.. I have no promise. It is by the Grace of God... it is by his grace.. that he accepts what I could do.. and makes up the difference... and saves me. But if I choose to do nothing.. or not do what I could do... then he will not just save me anyway.
That is the difference between what I believe... and what you believe.
Listen.. if you believed that the Gold plates that all these people saw and witnessed that they saw.. were real.. and if you believed that Joseph Smith.. by the power of God... translated what was written on those Gold plates to what is now called the Book of Mormon.. you would be Mormon. Simple as that. But you don't. So what you think about the gold plates or the pageant or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or the temples or whatever is "Mormon".. doesn't really matter. It won't be the same as what I believe.
But I do believe in those plates. I do believe in the words of all those people who saw them.. held them.. turned the pages... saw the writings on them.. witnessed the many many things they saw and heard.. and wrote down what they saw and heard.
I do believe that Joseph Smith.. a boy at 14 years old.. did have a vision from God the Father and his son Jesus Christ. And I do believe that Joseph was told that he would be an instrument in the hands of God.. to restore.. to bring back to knowledge of mankind.. all the things of God that had been lost.
And from the appearance of the Angel Moroni.. informing Joseph that he would be used to translate the historical and spiritual records of a people that once lived on the American continent... (which in 1830 was considered what we now call North and South America) that he did indeed translate that record. And he then published that record. And that record has gone forth.. starting in a tiny town in NY.. and today.. is now in almost every country of the world. All of this was done in preparation for the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. And mark my word.. You will see the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith all come true. Because the words that Joseph spoke.. came from Jesus Christ himself.
Really, N? Then if the churches of Christ (Christian, Catholic, Mormon, etc.) recognize homosexuals as saved people, then why are we not accept in the Body of Christ? The article explains your religion has just now allowed gays back into your fold of your church and their families. Why hasn't this been the norm instead of shunning and expulsion?
Give me a break on your church's backtracking, its the same old crap "Love the Sinner but hate the sin." I love how this is always used again gays but not humans in general, since WE WERE ALL BORN IN SIN! But again, I don't consider my lifestyle a sin, or that I am living in sin since I have salvation of spirit.
I came out in 1987 at 26 in my church in their nationwide deliverance paper as an Ex Gay AFTER 10 years of services and celibacy, and guess what? I WAS SHUNNED BY THE PEOPLE I KNEW AND SERVED WITH FOR YEARS. So don't give me this bullshit double standard. I am done with this conversation unless you care to know about how I actually saw your Hill Cumorah Pagant in New York as a child, and you don't want my opinion on your church's divine revelations with the golden tablets and such.
You said: Mormons have no trouble cooling hatred of gays and marriage equality, the same way they got over hating black mormons as priests; mormons hear directly from god -- who likes to channel many of his edicts to them on letterhead stationery from the Justice Dept. The hand of god really does move in mysterious ways, doesn't it.
I say: A few points here. 1. We never hated gays. 2. There is no such thing as marriage equality as marriage is only between a man and woman. Anything else is just a perversion. 3. We never hated black mormons as priests. 4. We do hear directly from God (big G) 5. You are wrong on how God delivers his authoritative commands, the only Justice Dept.. is God's Justice.. and 6.. don't want to leave out #6.. God. (big G) does indeed move in mysterious ways.. to bad you don't realize just how so.
You said: (today it is the gay person that you say can't be saved)
I say: Whoa!!! there big fella. I never said that! You are putting words in my mouth. That statement is totally false. Regroup.
No, siggie. We aren't arguing religion as much as it is our Constitutional right to hold our own belief system, and when someone else's religion wants to tell me how to live and belive, then I will definately get in your face with what my own beliefs are. When you try to pass civil laws regarding my rights, I will get in your face about my Consitiutional rights. I have not told any Mormon that their religion is incorrect for them, but that it is not right for me and they or any other religion is not going to get away making laws that I will have to follow based on their beliefs only. That is what Equal Rights is all about.
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