"The 2nd amendment is vague and ambiguous," - Lil Mick
Not at all. It is quite clear and concise.
"can you legally and specifically define an "arms" " - Lil Mick
Absolutely! First, we have the descriptors used in the amendment itself -- those items which individual people would be capable of keeping (storing and maintaining) and bearing (transporting, carrying, serving, and operating). This would therefore eliminate any crew served items, and very large or very complicated items. Furthermore, when we look to the legal concepts (jurisprudence) of the time, most of our laws were based on English Common Law. Per ECL of the time, the definition of arms was items of common use for individual combat (ECL based this on the writings of Sir Edward Coke). This would eliminate area effect items such as explosives such as grenades (yes, they existed back then), artillery, and so on. Furthermore, this is borne out by looking at the items that people were and were not expected to provide for themselves under the Militia Acts: they were to come bearing their own firearms, swords, and spears (espontoon), but not cannon. Applying this to modern items, this would mean that semi-auto firearms would most definitely be considered arms, but full-auto (incl burst) AKA machine guns would probably not be.
"it also protects the ownership of a certain privately manufactured and marketed goods and none other." - Lil Mick
"The reason for the amendment, to build an army of civilians (militia) is no longer valid." - Lil Mick
You have it backwards. The Amendment does not use arms to build the militia, it uses the militia as one reason to not infringe the pre-existing right to arms. The body of the Constitution already provides for building the militia, so the idea that the amendment builds the militia is unsupportable.
Not only is the amendment quite clear as to what the right is (to keep and bear arms), but also who has the right (the people). If it were as you aver, it would say the right of the militia to keep and bear arms, but it does not.
" the wind fall profits due to this amendment to both gun manufacturers, sellers and gun lobby has been in the billions."
Most firearm manufacturers actually operate on pretty tight margins; however, efforts by gun control advocates (you) have certainly increased the demand for firearms and increased their profits during the last 8 years. IOW, you are causing them to make more money than usual.
"then we can move on with common sense gun safety legislation." - Lil Mick
You mean common appeal. What makes sense to some does not make sense to others and in many cases makes no sense what so ever, but people support it because it sounds good (AKA "feel-good" legislation).
"There is nothing factual to this response, this is an opinion. " - Lil Mick
No, it is the statement of many politicians including Hillary Clinton.
"I will stand strong on this as a fact, no one, no politician, no legislature is trying to take hunting rifles." - Lil Mick
There are many types of hunting rifles and yes, politicians have proposed banning some types of them and severely restricting others. Again, see statements by Clinton and others advocating Aussie and UK gun control. Try to own a rifle in the UK. You will find the choices extremely limited and the controls largely prohibitive.
"Right now, it is just background check loopholes, Assault style semi automatic long guns maybe, but not hunting rifles."
There are no background check loopholes. Assault is an action, not a style -- the term "assault style" is completely meaningless and one used by the media because they constantly get assault rifle, assault weapon, and other types of firearms mixed up. Semi-auto hunting rifles have been sold commercially in the US for over a century and are quite popular. But thanks for pointing out a type of hunting rifle you would like to ban, thereby supporting my previous point.
Am I to understand that Ambassador Stevens, Information Officer Sean Smith, Glen Doherty and Tyrone Woods were "old coots and codgers"?
Amen brother, amen!
People that complain about Colorado Springs, seriously need an education lesson on perspective.
Liberty...I hope your 4th of July was awesome....mine was, thank you.
The Bern marched in our parade this year, that was a real treat for us Vermonters, he is very loved here, across party lines.
"Are you the authority on what gets debated in this country?"
YOU'RE the one that has decided to arbitrarily decide which amendments are contemporarily appropriate, and which aren't.
"I am certainly debating the 2nd amendment"
No, you're not. You've asked for it to be repealed--shall I provide your verbatim nonsense?--which is just another sloppy, flacid attempt by some to make others behave according to their dictates and what they think is "right" and 'just".
Guess what? Your suggestion has zero traction and support, except from other simpletons that can't stand the idea that their families, friends, neighbors may think differently from them and make alternative decisions for themselves.
"The reason for the amendment, to build an army of civilians (militia) is no longer valid"
Your lack of understanding regarding this amendment would be astounding, were it not totally representative of how utterly ignorant you are regarding personal choice, individual freedom and personal liberty.
Look, it's obvious that you've allowed a detatched, omnipotent, "one size fits all" bureacracy to make your life choices--which is fine, as you obviously can't think for yourself--but I, and a majority of your fellow citizens, can still stand upright and decide what is best for ourselves.
Don't like something? Great; don't buy, support, encourage or contribute to it, but please stop yourself before you tell me what to do, or I'll just trample you underfoot and embarrass you for the simple act of suggesting you know "what's best".
Robert...what does this mean?
"There is no debate on The 2nd Amendment, it stands as is."
Are you the authority on what gets debated in this country?
I am certainly debating the 2nd amendment, and I will continue to do so as my right to do so as an American, just like you. :)
The 2nd amendment is vague and ambiguous, can you legally and specifically define an "arms" , it also protects the ownership of a certain privately manufactured and marketed goods and none other.
The reason for the amendment, to build an army of civilians (militia) is no longer valid.
I don't think we should be constitutionally protecting a particular privately sold good and no other, the wind fall profits due to this amendment to both gun manufacturers, sellers and gun lobby has been in the billions.
I believe this amendment should go, then we can move on with common sense gun safety legislation.
Until then, nothing will happen.
So my friend, let the 2nd amendment debate begin, just keep it respectful. :)
Yes, unfortunately HappyFew has brought the conversation back to the gutter that I really did want to get out of and have some real conversation.
The name calling and insults are really disgusting and infantile and they are thrown from both sides.
I believe Odin would be open to try, LIberty I believe is as lost a cause as is HappyFew. They just can't grow up.
If we could discuss openly, honestly and respectfully, we could get so much accomplished.
"Being ignorant is not a positive when you are attempting to revoke Rights of others"
Spot on, as those on the far-Left care not one iota about the rights of their fellow citizens, because if they agree with a stance or policy, they feel it should be supported and legislated to the maximum extent, but if they disagree, it should be banned outright, regardless of what tangible facts and hard data demonstrate and/or prove.
Such inclusive, self-centered, "Do what I say, as I know what's best for you!" thinking is becoming more prevalent in a segement of society that increasingly lets the gov't make decisions that used to be left to individuals, and is indicative of just how far we've regressed in terms of personal responsibility and accountability for one's actions.
"Mick" and "few" blindly dish out invective and disparagement during their irrational rants, then act shocked and offended when such verbalizations are reciprocated, further proving how little they actually have to say in their "all form, no substance" diatribes.
"Is LFA the old malcontent known as "tejon tech"?"
Hardly, but there's a reason you have to make presumptons like this to get attention: if you talked about yourself, no one would care...
There is no debate on The 2nd Amendment, it stands as is. Gun control advocates have not been able to disguise their true goal and only fools would consider giving over their Right to defend themselves. Nobody protects you but you.
As the spokesman for every firearm owner I have been appointed to make this offer: We will sell our firearms, all of them, for fair market value to the US government provided that all law enforcement agents do the same. No more weapons at all. The only firearms that will be found would be illegal. At that same time all 911 calls will produce the proper authority within 1 minute, failure to respond within 1 minute will result in "fines" paid to the citizen of $10,000.00, cash, period, pay up.
Anyone who thinks or states that police NEED weapons and cannot possibly respond within 1 minute to 911 call has answered their own idiotic notions of gun control and the absurdities they spew about something they know absolutely nothing about. Being ignorant is not a positive when you are attempting to revoke Rights of others. The best a gun control advocate can do is stay home, keep their mouth shut, mind their own business, stop being bigoted and stop being racist. As I said, there is no debate and no argument, if you want to stop violence then go out in the streets and stop it. Good luck.
By the way- there is no "epidemic" of shootings. There is no "gun culture", if there was a "gun culture" then when someone opened fire in a public place the return gunfire would be immediate.
The odds of being shot are minuscule and almost non-existent so why do some keep up their tiring BS? Money, control, power? Mostly, yes. For others it is just fear and ignorance. Stop flinging it around. Just because you have the Right does mean you have indulge it
And commenter "happyfew" trying to insult others only reveals their own lack of education and is the winner of "Moron of the Week". Try not to let your children see how lame you really are or they just might kill you in your sleep.
Old, wrinkled, subservient hags can only weep into their Ensure because they know they're a dying breed--literally!--and that the measures and legislation they'd support to tell others what to do will never get passed.
You'll always be easily-led, frequently-manipulated, and outclassed by all you choose to engage with here; my condolences in advance for your future embarrassments, but I look forward to contributing to them!
Have a good night; may the nurses be prompt in changing you and turn you often so you don't get bedsores and I hope the lobotomy scar is healing nicely!
poor angry old farts can only cry in their beers because they know the world is changing and will never again be as backwards as they remember... poor poor old farts...
"the rational thinking intelligent people will take over now"
Lemme guess: You consider yourself part of this demographic, yet can't even properly capitalize or punctuate?
Gotta love the self-absorption and faux-indignation of a geriatric, drug-addled, entitlement-dependent, nursery-school deadbeat transient that thinks she knows better than others how to conduct their lives.
This trogolodyte actually thinks that gun regs which have never worked are a magical panaces that will cure violence, but the regressives she relies upon to pay her bills and provide her thoughts and opinions on this are inept to the point of staging catered sit-ins, complete with bathroom breaks.
(I'd embellish all this, but it's perfect as it stands!)
The country is changing, and the mindless, no-info rabble sucking on the gov't teat are fizzling-out; or is Bernie gonna be the regressives nominee? LOL!
Go back under the bridge and slam some MD 20/20--we won't ask what you had to do to "earn" the bottles--then take a dip in the creek--soak your "naughty bits"--and find a nice corner to patrol for pennies.
And by all means, shoot your mouth; it'll release some of the vaccum from between your ears and give us something more to laugh at...
gotta love the certainty of the nra loving, drunken, redneck, pick-em-up truck driving, high school drop out, gun nuts about gun regulations. these nimrods truly think that the clueless teabaggers running the show now will be around in 6 months. the country is changing and the redneck and religious freak period is over. the rational thinking intelligent people will take over now. now go back to your double wide and drink a 40 oz. and get mad that you don't have a good job. shoot your guns... maybe it will help you feel better about yourself.
First, my apology to Odin, I read his post and thought it was Liberty, I gave Kudos to Liberty by mistake...it was Odin that posted a response to me without a single insult to me.
Lets have an awesome dialog, you and I Odin, I would love that. Let's start with the first point I made with your response.
"You folks seem to continue to push this false message that gun safety legislation is going to take your guns away," - Lil Mick
Not all of them all at once. But countless legislators and politicians have espoused doing basically that by adopting restrictions like those in the UK and Australia, where owning even a shotgun is very difficult and everything else much more so, and where massive "mandatory buy backs" and turn-ins were held -- AKA confiscations and bans. You can claim that no one wants to do this until you are blue in the face, but you are only fooling yourself.
There is nothing factual to this response, this is an opinion.
"Countless legislatures and politicians"
...ok, if they are countless, there must be a lot and they must be easy to name, can you give me a few who has espoused in taking all guns away from the civilian population?
...It's your opinion, which I will respect, but it is without any factual basis. Can't debate a factless opinion, I think you all do this and that is when the dialog goes to the crapper.
...I will stand strong on this as a fact, no one, no politician, no legislature is trying to take hunting rifles. If anyone did, I, as a progressive would oppose such legislation. I live in Vermont and hunting is very..very big here, I would stand side by side with you Odin and Liberty in opposing such legislation. That's a promise.
...So, Odin, if you can't tell me which of the countless legislatures want to take all guns away including hunting rifles, then my point stands.
...Saying this "You can claim that no one wants to do this until you are blue in the face, but you are only fooling yourself." Is worthless without facts to back it up.
Opinions need to always be backed up by facts in a dialog, or it is nothing more than an opinion and you cannot debate opinions, you can only debate the facts.
I still stand, no one is espousing that we take your guns away.
Right now, it is just background check loopholes, Assault style semi automatic long guns maybe, but not hunting rifles.
Your response is simply non factual...not true...and we need to stop this false narrative and really debate the facts.
Thank you Odin, for your willingness to talk to me as friends who simply have a different point of view.
Was this response both adult and respectful to you Odin?
Is LFA the old malcontent known as "tejon tech"? Man, we are in trouble if Allen is armed.
Anyway, live by the sword, die by the sword.
"insecure, scared and intellectually challenged people (more than likely on the government dole and not admit it) are hilarious"
Your's is obviously the voice of experience, but you're not "hilarious", you're pathetic in the extreme, and you write like there's a vaccum-chamber between your ears.
"the rest of us will make sure appropriate regulations will be put in place"
Bottom line? Nothing proposed by legislators has passed, and Congressional Dems had to resort to pentulant infancy and infantile posturing before it was over, which obviously has "inspired" you here, LOL!
Do you understand? NOTHING is going to be changed regarding ownership, so please continue with more goofy histrionics and sloppy diatribes; it only underscores how unhinged and unglued some uber-liberals become when they don't get their way.
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