"If gun ownership pre-existed the Constitution why did the Founders insist on the 2nd Amendment?" - Vietnamized
To protect the pre-existing right. The Bill of Rights does not grant any rights to people, it recognizes rights we already have and protects them.
"As far as hunting for horns, the meaning was a little unclear - maybe trophy hunting says it better. "
Trophy hunting is a loaded term and is actually says it worse. To most people it invokes visions of people who kill an animal for a symbolic part to display, such as horns or antlers, but then leave the rest of the animal to go to waste. These types of hunters are very uncommon and again, this kind of hunting is often illegal. In reality, many hunters who try to take a really nice buck or bull based on the antlers, use the meat, and keep the antlers as a trophy are considered trophy hunters.
"and those guys aren't interested in the tenderloin. "
Yeah, actually, they are. They are after both the meat and the chance to take an exotic or trophy animal. The meat gets used and usually is divided between the outfitter and the hunter.
"If it were illegal to trophy hunt then all these Boone and Crockett lists would be meaningless."
Again, that will depend on your definition of a trophy hunt. Hunters who get nice B&C animals don't just leave the meat to rot, they use much of the animal.
"I prefer the youngest, tastiest elk I can find, "
So, you prefer to take an elk before it has a chance to contribute to the elk population, removing its genetics from the gene pool, thereby hurting the elk population overall; instead of taking a management bull which is no longer contributing, already passed on its genes, and is merely using up resources. Maybe the management bull isn't as tasty, but as far as ethics go, it is far more ethical to take the management bull than the young elk.
If gun ownership pre-existed the Constitution why did the Founders insist on the 2nd Amendment? Amendments followed the original Constitution, if memory serves. I called it a privilege because it is a privilege to live here. As far as hunting for horns, the meaning was a little unclear - maybe trophy hunting says it better. There are game ranches in Texas where you can pay $2000/day/per gun to hunt trophy whitetail, Blacktail (mule deer to us), elk (yes, elk in Texas - saw the biggest 8x8 bull I've ever seen on my project), as well as numerous exotic species...and those guys aren't interested in the tenderloin. If it were illegal to trophy hunt then all these Boone and Crockett lists would be meaningless. I prefer the youngest, tastiest elk I can find, and I don't shoot deer anymore - ate enough venison in my life, though it does make pretty good chili when mixed 50-50 with pork. I gave you a like because you stimulated conversation, even thou IMHO you were only partially right.
"As a liberal and a hunter, I hunt for meat, but there are many who hunt for horns, or for the 'manliness' of it all. " -- Vietnamized
Actually it is exceptionally uncommon these days for people to hunt strictly for horns, in fact it is illegal in many states.
"I have been hunting all of my life, and I feel no threat to my 2nd Amendment privileges afforded by the Constitution."
The Second protects a right, not a privilege, and it has squat to do with hunting. The right it protects is pre-existing, not something given by the Constitution.
"As populations have grown deer have been crowded into smaller and smaller ranges, "
And deer populations have also increased dramatically -- there are more whitetail deer in the US now than when Columbus arrived in the "New World".
"The real alternative to not hunting is not pretty. Deer overpopulate their range and die of starvation."
Quite true. In places like California where the Bambi huggers have held sway over what should have been a scientific decision on how many animals to harvest, what mix of genders to harvest, etc, they mismanaged their deer populations so badly that almost 80% of all fawns died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition before they were 1 year old.
As a liberal and a hunter, I hunt for meat, but there are many who hunt for horns, or for the 'manliness' of it all. I have been hunting all of my life, and I feel no threat to my 2nd Amendment privileges afforded by the Constitution. Gina, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I am glad you chose to voice it here.
Now, as to hunting, and deer/auto collisions: The deer were here first and we have encroached on their homeland, much as we did the Native Americans - Territorial Imperative my foot. As populations have grown deer have been crowded into smaller and smaller ranges, and contact between species is pretty much inevitable...especially when whizzing down the road at 70+ mph at night. One of the purposes of hunting is to control the species in a purportedly humane manner (you lousy shots who gut-shoot your quarry - this does not apply to you). As a recent letter in the Denver Post brought out that hunting license sales have gone down every time the Dept of Fish and Wildlife raised the license fees. I don't know, because I recently moved back and have not fully experienced the carnage of post-TABOR Colorado. It makes sense though. A suggestion was that, since all wildlife belongs to all citizens that the maintenance of public lands and hunting and fishing enforcement should be handled out of the General Fund. To this I add that it be an add-on rather than an offset so that there really is more money for the programs. It's worth some thought.
The real alternative to not hunting is not pretty. Deer overpopulate their range and die of starvation. Water becomes scarce. Predation is limited because we still allow their predators to be hunted. The outcry against wolves (who were also here first, by the way), driven by ranchers and sheepherders, only serves to exacerbate the problem by spreading false information about the role of wolves in the wild. Ask anyone north of I 70 who has had an counter with an aggressive moose if they think there should be more wolves in the area to control the moose population.
LibertyForAll, you could have made your point without the snark, but "There is a multitude of articles" instead of 'There are a multitude of articles"...tsk, tsk! One snark deserves another.
"Why can't The Second Amendment People protect us from these deer? I thought the whole point of owning all these high-powered weapons was to hunt? Why won't they do their patriotic duty, and go out and hunt them deer?" - Gina Douglas
1) If you think the Second Amendment is about hunting, you are dramatically mistaken.
2) Define "high powered".
3) Many of us do hunt.
Harvey Album: Your support for the "thin blue line" is noted and dismissed. Support for the thin blue line causes people to be surrounded by thick white lines.
Scott Olson: On your six-hour walking tour of the homeless, can your people do something useful and pick up their trash?
Gina Douglas: You are encountering the radical terrorist sect Deersh, related to Daesh, but hunting in city limits is illegal per your liberal City Council.
Surprise, surprise: another liberal, hyperbolic, faux-indignant screed about the 2nd Amendment and gun control. Regressives may not be many things, but they're certainly consistent in their misrepresentation of this matter, Congratulations?
Gina--and many of you seem--to overlook (intentionally?) the fact that deer hunting is a carefully measured and organized process, with licenses allocated in very specific quantities based-upon population density and geographic factors, and which can be prohibitively expensive, esp. for out-of-state hunters that bring an influx of tourism dollars when they visit, and these funds also help sustain environmental initiatives and wildlife management.
And most hunters don't perform the activity for "sport", but for the meat that is gained after processing, and as for the vehicular angle you're trying to exploit, here's a bit of information from the link I've presented:
"Reason No. 19 why Hunting Is Conservation: Hunting has major value for highway safety. For every deer hit by a motorist, hunters take six"
There is a multitude of articles illustrating all of this in elaborate detail; please research instead of making knee-jerk, fallacious assumptions.
Concerning the arts. Jon, You couldn't be more right about coverage of the arts. Honest feedback and critique is essential for an artist to grow, and for a vibrant arts scene to flourish.
Cottonwood, (a big thanks, and apologies to Lizz Driscoll, for dealing with my flakey ass) gave me the opportunity several years back to show and sell work at the now closed Cottonwood on Tejon gallery. Your organization was welcoming, encouraging, and paid the artists fairly and on time. Thanks, it was an experience I will always be grateful for, and think fondly of.
You, and the entire staff at Cottonwood are a very special and unique asset to this community. Keep up the great work.
WOW..... Talk about a thread going off topic. Everything from narcissistic score keeping of "likes" which come off like a high school girl talking about a selfie she posted on Instagram, to mean-spirited, ill informed, vicious, antiwar rhetoric and name calling from a conflict that ended forty years ago, which comes off like an angry troll living in his moms basement. The only thing missing was a logical dialog of the subject at hand. Did anyone actually read Kerri's letter? She states that she was given the choice between what is rightfully considered politically biased FOX news -- although they are all biased in their own way -- and the apolitical ESPN. Yet everyone picked option 3, which was to spout off and throw self-centered tantrums. One of the biggest issues we face in this society is the lack of a centrist viewpoint. Everyone has moved far right or far left; is pragmatism a thing of the past? The truth almost always lies somewhere in between the extremes. If this is indicative of society as a whole we are all screwed. Take a deep breath and realize we are all a bunch of silly little creatures on what should be a fun little ride on the whirligig that is planet earth.
Kerri, Bill W and all the others who posted or liked our threads, thank you! I have been doing this in hostile forums for over 20 years now, and the most positive thing it does is generate more conversation about issues that affect all of us. I will be writing a letter soon that will address the sorry state of affairs locally, statewide and nationally that has been spawned by the Newt Gingrich GOPAC handbook on how to cast your opponent in the worst light possible without actually having any proof. The American voter is being conned mightily by the likes of Frank Luntz and Karl Rove (pay attention, all you evangelicals - Karl Rove laughed at you when he got W elected in part with your support - the rest of it was a crooked Secretary of State in Florida who instituted a voter purge that was "far too broad and would yield thousands of false positives" according to the private company who performed the study...she should have been the Ambassador to Chad).
There is much afoot in the way of shenanigans - another huge, indiscriminate voter purge targeting minorities that is a carbon copy of the 2000 Florida purge that drew scrutiny from the Federal Election Commission, NAACP, ACLU and numerous other groups and individuals. It should be arrested and eliminated immediately. Why is it that Democrats want more people to vote and why do Republicans want fewer...and voters that are more influenced by sound bites and the tripe fed them by the devious few.
Thanks...for several reasons, in order of importance below:
1. Thanks for your military service. Much appreciated...and respected.
2. Thanks for entering the fray and not being intimidated by the usual suspects.
3. Thanks for your post military service to our country. You're obviously a very successful entrepreneur, and one of those that your detractors always claim to favor.
Please keep posting...
Liberty for all and Staci in WP:
Just curious. I highly doubt you would have a problem with MSNBC playing in government offices, right? Since you have no problem with Fox, you couldn't possibly object to other viewpoints...
Here are emails exchanged with Wayne Williams in 2014 regarding the FOX news station playing at the DMV.
I spent a bit of time at the DMV on Powers today and want to say your staff was extremely helpful and got me through very quickly. I was a bit surprised though that FOX news was on the TV. I am so offended by their raciest and anti-gay agenda not to mention how much they hate the President of The United States. Perhaps you could find something else that would be more inclusive to all of your customers.
Thank you for your time,
Thanks for contacting me.
First, thank you for your comments on our staff and service. I very much appreciate your input and am proud of the service we provide.
With respect to the broadcast selection, all networks have their fans and detractors. Our branch offices have the technology capacity for displaying only one news broadcast. We have made the selection of the network based on which network is the most popular. Throughout the time I have been Clerk, this has been Fox News. See http://www.deadline.com/2014/01/fnc-extend…. As noted in the report, Fox’s viewership is significant larger than any of the other news networks. Since each of the networks has both proponents and detractors, making the decision in a democratic fashion seems appropriate.
On the other hand, our main office on Garden of the Gods has the capacity for more than one network, so CNN typically is shown there as well. If the network shown on the television monitor is a factor in which office you choose to use, the main office is located 1675 W Garden of the Gods Road, 80907.
Thanks again for contacting me.
Wayne W. Williams
El Paso County Clerk & Recorder
From: Cheryl Barry [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 3:14 PM
To: Wayne Williams
Subject: DMV on Powers
Thank you so much for getting back to me. I do understand your reasoning but I wonder where it is most popular? Nationally? In the deep south? State wide? I guarantee that if you surveyed my neighborhood it would not be. Just because it is most popular does not mean it is fitting for a public, government office that thousands of people have to visit weather they want to or not. My friends and I pay the same taxes, we pay the same amount for our licenses and registrations and we should not be forced to watch something we find so offensive and slanted. I am not asking for MSNBC which I do realize people on the other side would be offended by but CNN does seem to be a good middle ground. It is on in every airport in the world. But why news? The Wells Fargo bank that I used to go to in Denver always had HGTV on and people enjoyed watching it while waiting in line. I have also seen a cooking network somewhere that seemed appropriate.
I sure hope you will give this some consideration. I should not have to choose which DMV I have to go to based on which will offend me the least.
oblio, I wonder how your rant against combat veterans will play with other Vietnam vets who did what their country asked only to learn it was a mistake. We all hurt in one way or another, but hearing it from you doesn't accomplish anything except making us angry at those who were "too smart" to go. I have friends and acquaintances like that, and they know better than to take that tack with me. They hid under the bed and cried like little babies, or soiled themselves on the way to the draft physical like Ted Nugent.
BTW, oblio - please point out the cliches...I must have missed them in my edit!
Kerri - Thanks for starting this thread and bringing all the rats out of the woodwork. I sent you a friend request and would be honored if you accepted. You are spot on abut bias in El Paso County! And it looks like there aren't as many as I suspected...judging by the like vs. dislikes on this forum. Thanks to obliosuperstud some of them even want to be disrespectful of the very men and women who help maintain his right to be a jackass.
obliosupercat, you sound just like all the rest of the elitist draft dodgers I've met...including Dick Cheney, W, Paul Wolfowitz and the rest of the academic neocons. Hindsight is 20-20.Had you gotten drafted out of a family that has military history preceding the Revolutionary War what would you have done? At 18 we are all vulnerable, and the big build-up happened right after I graduated from high school. Where were you when that war was being waged? And how did you respond to Afghanistan and Iraq? Have you served your country? Did you protest any of those wars? I didn't want to go to Vietnam, but I did. The experience changed me profoundly and I protested that war and all of those to follow vehemently, just as I protest Faux propaganda in public venues.
As for killing innocent women and children I can safely say that in my year with the most decorated artillery unit in the theater we only had one accident, due to a coordinate error called in by a Vietnamese team. I got to go count the bodies of the elderly, women and children to make sure they weren't filling body bags with rocks and animals to receive reparations. The bags had been in the sun for two days, and there were what was left of those people inside. I asked HQ what the reparations amounted to, and was told we paid 3400 piastres per "mistake" - that's $34.00 a head. I was red white and blue before I went, and vehemently anti-war when I returned, to include protesting at the White House by pitching my medals over the fence with John Kerry and the rest. It was a useless, needless war, and 20000 more US troops died unnecessarily so that Nixon could get the same deal he could have had when he was elected in 1968. Were you engaged in that protest? Did you vote for Nixon? Could you even vote at all? It seems you're the one. I've been published in newspapers around the country, usually as the progressive foil to your regressive rants, from "protect the flag" to the to ally useless war in Iraq (just to keep the record straight I was all for going after Bin Laden and his thugs, but not the way we went about it.)
Agent Orange hasn't gotten me yet, and I daresay that if all you do is sit around and make comments on this forum you probably aren't as fit as I am, and I'm 70 years old. I have been involved in moving us away from a fossil fuel economy for 40 years, hold several patents, and usually don't have the time of day for feeble-minded folks like you, but I'll make an exception this time. Glad I can get under your skin!
I still work, I have a $1B renewable energy project moving toward construction, I raise grapes and apples and make my own wine, I cycle and ski and fish and prospect and still climb 14er's. What do you do? Besides sit on your butt and criticize disabled veterans who actually try to change the paradigm...
vietnamized. I did read the Columbia report. Everyone knows fox news is biased; also read your complaint which was not about political propaganda, but, about which propaganda you prefer. All television news is propaganda. The same propaganda that sent you to Vietnam. Of course you could of done some research, and made a choice not to go kill innocent women and children. Looks like you swung and missed when it really counted. Since you like to keep score how's it feel to be one of the sheeple who facilitated an unjust war? Big difference between fighting the power in an internet forum, and, standing up in real life. Agent Orange 1, you 0!
The part of this discourse that is most important to me, is the reality that we seem to have a partisan clerk and recorder, Chuck Broerman, who happens to be deeply entrenched in the same doctrine that was being promoted by Fox News on ALL (7 I believe) monitors in the citizens center waiting area. This is where all citizens of El Paso County MUST go to get licensing for Motor Vehicle, Driver's License, Recording, Marriage/Civil Union Licenses, and ELECTION SERVICES!!!
Further more, and I quote: “The primary purpose of our office is to serve the citizens of El Paso County and ensure their democratic right to vote is unencumbered,” said Clerk and Recorder Chuck Broerman." This is directly from the County website.
If this fact troubles anyone else, please be sure to contact Mr. Broerman; or better yet one of your County Commissioners, The Colorado Attorney General, or anyone else on the list who should be accountable and aware.... Here is the link for contact and background info on all of our elected officials:
Voter Registration Submittals:
Clerk & Recorder
Obliosupercat, you crack me up! First you shoot off a snarky reply to what was a legitimate complaint about political propaganda in a public facility and then you attempt to diss me for giving you some red meat to go research. Nice try, kid, but you swung and missed. Try researching the Columbia School of Journalism's study for starters. As far as my rhetoric and feeble attempts at wit...I got 4 likes to 2 dislikes and you got 5 dislikes to 2 likes. I like keeping score!
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