In David McCullough's biography of John Adams, Abigail wrote: "It (slavery) always seemed a most iniquitous scheme to me - to fight ourselves for what we are daily robbing and plundering from those who have as good a right to freedom as we have." Both John and Abigail (Massachusett farmers), who were vehemently opposed to slavery, considered slaves to be like themselves, who were entitled, on the basis of common humanity, to the same rights as themselves. They believed that the only difference between the 2 races was the color of their skin- and nothing else.
The cruel treatment slaves were subjected to was not the primary reason for abolishing the practice. Instead, slavery was a moral issue. Those opposed recognized that the master-slave relationship was, as Jefferson - a Virginia planter and slave owner - wrote in 1785, "unremitting despotism." And, prophetically, he wrote, "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever."
Odin wrote, slavery "It was allowed as a compromise with the goal of eventually eliminating it." Curious wrote, "the moral issue of slavery was put on the back burner, to be dealt with later."
Yet, four score and seven years later our nation became embroiled in its most deadly war, not because Abraham Lincoln wanted to eliminate slavery entirely, but because he wanted to prevent the spread of slavery to states newly admitted to the union.
Odin, you did a lot of dancing around the issue and backpedaling, but you explained nothing, and you certainly never proved anything, much less that I am wrong.
"Judging the actions of those in a position to effect policy in the 1780s by the 'enlightened' opinions of those in 2017 is not helpful." Except that I am the one describing the opinions of the 1780's and you are the one attributing to them the enlightened opinions.
If the Founders truly "generally recognized humanity of the slaves" then why did the South institute segregation after losing the War Between the States?
"The northern states (not being agricultural)..." Where did you come up with that? One of main blocs in the abolitionist movement was the Northern farmer, who felt that the south's use of slaves gave them an unfair competitive advantage. Do you know that Connecticut is a major grower of tobacco?
The fact that the founders and abolitionists opposed slavery does not prove they considered the slaves to be human. Just take a look at the animal rights movement. The members may believe that animals are subject to unspeakable cruelty, but none of them believes that a cow, or a horse, or a dog, are human. Likewise, abolitionists observed the unspeakable cruelty that slaves were subjected to, but that does not mean they believed that Blacks were capable of logical thinking or behaving like civilized people.
"My point is that the same arguments and logic can be used to evaluate Planned Parenthood. "
And as I explained, you are wrong.
Slaves WERE considered human by the Founders as well as others, primarily abolitionists, who were opposed to slavery. That was the core root of the moral dilemma - the generally recognized humanity of the slaves vs the need for slaves to maintain the plantation economic system in the south. The northern states (not being agricultural) didn't need slave labor and were the first to free their slaves. The Founders priority in the 1780s was to create a unified nation, one strong enough to defend itself against foreign interests (Britain, France, and Spain). To do so meant that the moral issue of slavery was put on the back burner, to be dealt with later. Judging the actions of those in a position to effect policy in the 1780s by the "enlightened" opinions of those in 2017 is not helpful.
Protest outside and inside tomorrow: https://www.facebook.com/events/1827103067…
Cool story! What are the chances the replacement will last as long?
All we ask of our Supreme Court Justices is that they uphold the laws of the United States. If you don't like the law, take it up with your members of Congress.
I never said that Odin was wrong in his analysis of the founding of America. My point is that the same arguments and logic can be used to evaluate Planned Parenthood. Just replace every occurrence of the word "slavery" in Odin's last message--his defense of America-- with the word "eugenics" and it becomes a defense of Planned Parenthood.
Furthermore, the belief that "All men are created equal" did not include slaves as they were not considered human even by those opposed to slavery.
I'm the man in this article my name is Joseph Martinez a few things on here was incorrect they drop charges on me because I took a lie detector test and passed it and when told that I was going to get a fair lineup all they did was have sit outside of the courtroom and as the undercover cop got off the elevator the DEA pointed me out with their eyes after that the undercover cop came up to me and tried to accuse me knowing that he got the wrong guy just to save his own butt when I tried suing the city the judge handling my case told my attorney I wasn't getting nothing and that they had a right to do what they did kind of sucks because a lot of them in the judicial system will never know what it feels like to wake up day after day having to look over your shoulder being paranoid
I'm the man in this case that they were accusing hi my name is Joseph Martinez a few of these things in his article
BalBlair Single Malt.
The development community took a big hit on the 4th. Will bet a 5th on the 18th that council will retain a weak president who will follow orders.
Odin is correct re American history. Agreeing on a Constitution that would bind the north and south states into a union - with a Federal govt having certain powers over the states - was an extraordinarily difficult task. Most northerners and many of the southern planters were morally opposed to slavery and yet they managed to create a govt in support of their belief that "All men are created equal". But since the south was dependent on slave labor for their tobacco crops, the divisive issue of slavery was postponed for the next generation to resolve.
The books I've recently read about the Revolutionary Generation show how difficult it was to reach a compromise - and without compromise, there would have been no United States of America. That our republican govt has lasted for 200 plus years without evolving into a dictatorship (which was the great fear of the Founders) is a stunning accomplishment.
I was speaking to the matter of Mrs. Gaebler not having the support on council to be chosen as President. I think it really is a choice between Mr. Bennett and Mr. Skorman. The mayor and chief of staff will be offering deals to entice council members to keep Mr. Bennett as President. They need a 'Yes' man. These decisions are basically made at Plaza of the Rockies!
You have addressed slavery in your analysis of our Founding Fathers, but you ignored the proposition that Blacks were considered to be sub-human even by those enlightened souls who railed the loudest against slavery. Had they believed the slaves to be fully human, how could they ever compromise?
But you are correct. My analogy is imperfect because the mission of Planned Parenthood was never to sterilize anybody in the first place, so the organization did not need to change very much over the years, unlike our nation.
You can call me dumb all day long and LOL until your sides split, but that does not prove your contentions. Proof requires evidence.
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