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Re: “City for Champions, Andrew Wommack in Woodland Park, the Air Force Academy and more

Here's an online Gazette comment from a citizen who also has some questions:

... now were hearing multi use stadium... I dont see it drawing very much. the non profits ... Does that mean the City is not allowed to profit from these attractions? If not how we going to get our money back? So if they do make money all profits go to paying the bonds to build these things. The tax rebates only kick in after these things are up and running. So does that mean the only money we get back is a portion of the tax money those attractions receive when there up and paying the taxes to the State? Hows that work out to be a rebate? The wording made it sound like we build it work it to pay the State so they can pay us a part of what we earned. If thats true wouldnt be better to build the whole thing pass on the rebate and keep the profits to pay the bonds and for things we need and just give the State there taxes. I would like to see a full accounting of this deal before they sign it.

OK, mayor Bach, WE WANT ANSWERS. If we don't get answers, WE are not going to play ball with you. And, yes, you have to play ball with us or we are not going to give you our money.

14 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by curious on 12/26/2013 at 9:48 PM

Re: “City for Champions, Andrew Wommack in Woodland Park, the Air Force Academy and more

From the online Gazette: This is Wayne's reply to councilman Miller's posted response to today's editorial: "Councilman: The editorial states that state tax rebates are not a city TIF. They are not. So you are simply wrong about that."

What follows is councilman Miller's post. Judge for yourselves which commenter presents facts and which does not. Judge which of the 2 understands the issues involved in C4C and which does not. Judge which is a trustworthy source of information and which is not.

Councilman Miller's post: First, let me give you the financing facts on City for Champions City Incremental Tax Financing (TIF) which were recently obtained by a Colorado Open Records Act request. And, yes, that’s a City TIF—though the Gazette editorial piece states there is not a City TIF funding the projects, that is patently incorrect. In fact, City for Champions employs State, County and City TIFs.
TIFs establish an economic baseline over a portion of the City. In the case of City for Champions, the portion covers approximately 90% of the City; 90% of cash registers in the City will contribute to paying for City for Champions for 30 years. If you would like to see the map of this “Regional Tourism Zone,” please follow this link: http://www.joelmillercoloradospringscityco…
TIFs divert a portion of sales tax from the General Fund (the General Fund pays for Police, Fire, Roads and other core services) to help pay for other projects. In the case of City for Champions, 100% of City Sales Tax above the established baseline will contribute to paying for City for Champions projects for 30 years. 100% . 30 years. Approximately 90% of the City’s cash registers.
This is all clear through the financial plan, which proponents have not shared with citizens and press.
Second, let’s discuss Bass Pro. Before the area was developed, it was nothing but a dirt field. So, any economic growth above a pre-established baseline is easily attributed to the development. In the case of City for Champions, on the other hand, if there’s a burger joint located four miles from the new Academy Visitors Center and that burger joint enjoys an upswing, that upswing and the accompanying City tax dollars above the baseline will be attributed to the Visitors Center and the other projects, and the upswing will pay for the projects.
Furthermore, the TIF on Bass Pro is not 100% and the portion that is diverted from the General Fund does NOT subsidize developers—it will go directly and exclusively toward completing Powers Boulevard to I-25. The completion of Powers serves the public and when Powers is complete, the TIF will end.
I’m a staunch supporter of the Colorado Springs Airport and served on the Advisory Board for nine years. Southwest Airlines has told Airport officials that completing Powers would significantly improve the possibility of Southwest coming to Colorado Springs. While I opposed the Bass Pro area designation as urban blight and am not a fan of Tax Incremental Financing, because any revenues above the baseline are irrefutably attributed to the project and the TIF completes a vital roadway and will end when the roadway is complete, the TIF serves a valid public purpose.
Finally, the Bass Pro developer generously supported my opponent during the campaign with financial and in-kind donations. I have not accepted donations from any developer and never will, so that citizens can trust my decisions regarding development involve no conflicts of interest.

15 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by curious on 12/26/2013 at 8:50 PM

Re: “City for Champions, Andrew Wommack in Woodland Park, the Air Force Academy and more

In today's Gazette there is another attack by Wayne on councilman Miller. The city has been awarded $120M from the state, so WHY do these juvenile diatribes against Miller continue? Wayne's dizzy editorial is an attempt to lead Gazette readers to believe that Miller is the only person in COS opposed to C4C. The Gazette doth protest too much, methinks. Which makes me further think that Miller is a force to be reckoned with. So . . . break out the bubbly and chalk up one for our side.

Wayne, while slinging darts and arrows at the councilman, answers none of the burning questions swirling around C4C. Question like income sources for making payments on the $250M or more of bonds to be issued. Wayne said no city portion of STIF will be applied to make bond payments. He wrote: "C4C proposes ... a state portion, not a city portion to help fund the projects." But Wayne misspoke. The fact is the STIF portion will be scooped off the top and go towards bond payments. This error/mistake/obfuscation/lie requires a retraction by the Gazette. But will the retraction to set the record straight be forthcoming? Expect a wall of silence. More questions: WHO will develop the property? WHO is going to pay for building cost overruns? WHO will own the stadium, museum assets? WHO will own the liabilities? WHO will be hired to run the non-profit entities and HOW MUCH will they be paid? WHO is going to pay maintenance, should it be deferred? HOW will bond payments be made if STIF revenue is insufficient and WHO will have to pay? All we opponents are asking for is answers to these, and a number of other, questions. And after all questions have been asked and answered to our satisfaction, we will happily climb aboard the band wagon.

16 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by curious on 12/26/2013 at 6:18 PM

Re: “City for Champions, Andrew Wommack in Woodland Park, the Air Force Academy and more

Brooke Squires,

The firearm sales on bases are subject to all the same laws and restrictions as off base, PLUS there are restrictions regarding purchases by junior troops, all firearms kept in housing have to be registered, cadets can't keep firearms, firearms cannot be carried on base, active duty personnel living in dorms have to keep the firearms in the armory, etc. So, your concerns about having " guns easily available on a college campus" have no real foundation.

In fact, it is not at all uncommon for bases to have "rod and gun clubs" and to allow these to sell firearms. I bought several firearms from base "rod and gun clubs" in the 80s and 90s, several while at bases overseas.

As for suicides, while the majority of suicides in the US are completed with firearms, several studies have shown that removing firearms has no affect on suicide rates.

4 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by Dave H on 12/26/2013 at 2:25 PM

Re: “City for Champions, Andrew Wommack in Woodland Park, the Air Force Academy and more

Gary: Good questions. Anyone have answers? Anyone? The Gazette won't talk the tough talk. But maybe the Indy's investigative reporters will . . . seek and find and tell.

15 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by curious on 12/26/2013 at 10:11 AM

Re: “Avoiding City War I

Face it; we don't have a government. At least not one that adults would recognize.

Our mayor looks like Dopey the Dwarf, thinks HE is the whole government, that all he has to do is wave his hand over the podium at a rubber chicken dinner and 6000 jobs will arrive on our doorstep every year. Magical thinking like that is the domain of 5 year olds but the local GOP does a good job providing the electorate with such infants.

We have a city council leader who looks like Don Imus' puckered face, believes he is the big cheese and stomps around like a spoiled child who can't get his way with things.

We have 2 doofuses doing a kabuki dance of political theater within the envelope of a strong mayor charter that was poorly written by land developers, lacks the specificity needed to define roles, authorities, limits, boundaries and mechanisms for resolving issues.

Face it, the city is doomed. We are the City 4 Chumpions.

21 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by OldCrank on 12/25/2013 at 12:04 PM

Re: “Losing the education war

Revealing article and interesting comments thus far. The article (and comments) reveal statistics that get a few interpretations from one of the higher ed leaders, from the columnist, and now from the comment givers. Numbers don't lie, but they can certainly be interpreted in different ways. So, whose interpretation of the supposed causes/effects BEHIND these stats are we to believe?

I teach at a local college; my wife teaches at a local elem can imagine the discussions WE have about these same issues and stats because of the real, live students we face everyday that make up these NUMBERS. The article is only beginning to scratch the surface and I appreciate Bolton's observations to help wake us up to some possible causes.

Now, let's go deeper.

Don't we need some critical thinking skills to find our way through? And with only 4 comments after two weeks, it seems like our motivation is a bit low as well. Critical thinking skills and Motivation -- might these be additional factors needed in the conversation? ...and within our schools AND families as well?

5 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Bruce R McCluggage on 12/25/2013 at 7:52 AM

Re: “Student accountability, 'fair and clean' county elections, gun fear and more

I see I got 5 dislikes, but not a single person even tried to refute anything I stated. ROTFLMBO!

2 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Dave H on 12/22/2013 at 1:29 PM

Re: “Student accountability, 'fair and clean' county elections, gun fear and more

Sally Alberts! One comment you made was the first I have heard saying about solutions then you digressed into the same old same old. It is against the law to kill another human. Does that stop anyone? So the mentally challenged advocate for more laws! It is so tiresome and nothing will be done due to the loud mouths who must be appeased and have their nonsense addressed before logic and reason can be introduced.
Why send a child to school today anyway? They don't seem to be being educated.
Back in your day you recall fire drills. That was my day too. When I was 7 and in Elementary school we stopped having firing fire drills and started having nuclear attack drills. 1961 and the Cold War was about to become a shooting war with nuclear warheads placed in Cuba by the Soviets. The Soviets put them there, they were aimed at us and I believe they were Socialists. The form of government we will have if we continue down the path of ignorance we are on. Firearms will be the least of your worries and you will not worry about your children as they will be raised by someone else. The leaders will have all the weapons and all the money.
I know of solutions and if you want to hear them ask me but I have wasted too much time on this already. Your stance on firearms is a total ban and I am not fooled. Being a liar is a drag huh? It must suck to be you. I will ask: Whose job is it to protect your children? Answer that correctly and you are your way to enlightenment not the darkness of Socialism.

4 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Robert Wyman on 12/21/2013 at 3:54 PM

Re: “Gun deaths, outdoor rudeness, Ranger Rich and more

Robert Wyman....nice hat!!
And the camera is over this way......
Your pal,
Rich Tosches

2 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by richt on 12/21/2013 at 10:33 AM

Re: “The taxman never sleeps

Really enjoyed the article, thanks!
I always have mixed feelings, when reading the stories like Joan Hoyt's, who is 61, and still studies. On the one hand it's difficult for me to understand their aims and motivation, on the other I really respect and adore people so active late in life.

Jull from

Posted by Jull on 12/20/2013 at 3:20 PM

Re: “Joining the winning team

Sarah Pali....I mean Lisa CVZXZWEVZXZXAJKTDO
Thanks for the long rambling note. I hope I am indeed alive and well in four years. ONE year would be nice. Anyway, thanks for your insight. You should have gotten involved in local politics.
Rich Tosches

4 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by richt on 12/19/2013 at 3:03 PM

Re: “Joining the winning team

"From an actual letter to the state economic commission:" Really? You have seen actual letters and/or emails sent to the EDC? Regardless, agree that Bruce Jenner doesn't have the appeal of Garbo, Dietrich, Keaton, etal, to whom no shrines have been built.

During the blitzkrieg campaign unfolding to sell the wobbly benefits of building a stadium/museum complex, benefits that include putting COS on the road to duplicate the success of Oklahoma City, a city that just like COS had the empowering vision to build a stadium. Or was the success of OKC due to the obvious - that city's embrace of energy - not wind farms but OIL - and the revenue and prosperity for all that followed hard upon.

Our mayor says he wants the approval of the people, the very people who will be paying $350M and then some to build and maintain C4C for the next 30 years. City council is an important player in the decision making process. Let your opinion regarding C4C be heard. Contact them at

4 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by curious on 12/19/2013 at 10:25 AM

Re: “Joining the winning team

"into something different. Frankly, anything different." Words that can be applied to why COS local government changed to a Mayor-Council form of government. Residents wanted any type of change for the City and approved a ballot measure despite the charter having numerous errors and being unclear on responsibilities between the executive and legislative branches. I think if you read the report and really listen to their comments, EDC gave COS the money in order for our City to recover. Despite having both a 3rd party economic analyst and EDC staff recommending lower amounts, as well as some of the official application criteria not being met, they approved the full amount. Why? Fire, flooding, and being the only City to apply got Colorado Springs that money. It wasnt who wrote letters, or traveled on a bus thru a wintery storm, or who even sang for some dollars. COS has a chance to make some monumental changes for the City and Im excited to see a fire lit in this City to improve it's situation. It's reminds me the deal my hubby and I made with our teenager. "If you get all A's and B's, only then you can have a phone." The offer and opportunity are there for COS but action still needs to be taken. Rich, if you are still alive nor senile in 5 years, hopefully you will be writing on the completion and successes of the 4 projects. The real work of planning, funding, and community conversations begin now.

3 likes, 5 dislikes
Posted by lisaczelatdko on 12/19/2013 at 9:20 AM

Re: “Student accountability, 'fair and clean' county elections, gun fear and more

Sally, it's too bad your view that "our world seems to become more frightening and dangerous" is having a detrimental affect on your enjoyment of the Holidays, but if you'd choose to conduct some research, you'd find that firearms violence is actually decreasing, except in some large, urban areas (Chicago, Detroit, D.C.) that have enacted massive regulatory measures (simply Google "is gun violence up or down" for overwhelming evidence of this).

Please make a resolution next year to get the facts and tangible data about matters that concern you before succumbing to such distress, and in the meanwhile, have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

7 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by thinker on 12/19/2013 at 9:15 AM

Re: “Joining the winning team

I don't think we should be using city bonds or local tax funds to build facilities for the state university or federal government.

6 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by UCanSeeClearlyNow on 12/19/2013 at 7:02 AM

Re: “Joining the winning team

Buddy Buck- be careful of what you wish for. A poor plan is just that. Missy Palin once said the same thing about lipstick on a pig. In summary, I support any plan that might lead to any transformation of our village from a 1980s enclave of lousy jobs, Jesus nuts and gun loonies into something different. But Frank, if that's your real name, anything different is like the Colorado Springs no-name soccer team winning the world cup. I know, I know, it will produce 867 jobs. That's a hell of a mark up for $250 million. Why don't we just sell our own Mega Colorado Springs Lottery tickets. With 1 in 259 million odds, why we could pay for this entire City for Champions thing.

For I see now a day when we stride into our new Olympic museum and empty stadium, and see, right there in front of us, Jenkins' varsity shirt, Bruce Kardasian's purse and the signed letter from DeBachel stating "I shouldn't have eaten the whole thing". Don't forget Duck Dynasty Day at the stadium..brought to you by Bass Pro...

7 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by wpmurrayIII on 12/18/2013 at 8:05 PM

Re: “Student accountability, 'fair and clean' county elections, gun fear and more

"Gluten can cause health problems ("Your brain on grain," Appetite, Dec. 11), but so can quitting. "

Most people have no clue what gluten actually is/is not and what foods it can be found in. There are a lot of people out decrying foods as having gluten when they don't. There are also a lot relying on anecdotal evidence as if they were scientific studies and spreading tons of misinformation.

5 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Dave H on 12/18/2013 at 5:53 PM

Re: “Student accountability, 'fair and clean' county elections, gun fear and more

"When I was raising my children, in the '60s, they had fire drills at school. Would anyone have had the remotest thought that we would have to prepare them for someone coming into their schools and shooting them? Of course not."

And yet, in the 60s, firearms were much easier to get. You could get a full-auto (machine gun) for pretty cheap whereas today they will cost you several thousand just for a worn out one. There were no background checks. Age limits were nearly non-existent.


"but can't we reasonably try to come up with some partial solutions to this problem?"

Sure. How about addressing the behavior and its root causes instead of bosessing over the object being misused?


"Better regulations? Better background checks?"

We've been trying that for 75+ years, passing more and more restrictions on what can be bought/owned, who can own, and how to buy. Hasn't had much effect. So how about we realize that was the wrong approach and try something else?


"Shouldn't we all want this awful situation to stop?"

Who doesn't? The good news is it has been decreasing even though the number of firearms in circulation have been increasing.

10 likes, 7 dislikes
Posted by Dave H on 12/18/2013 at 5:48 PM

Re: “Student accountability, 'fair and clean' county elections, gun fear and more

The solution to gun violence is already working in some places, but many people don't like the answer so they hide the truth or just mock it. The solution worked in Arapaho the rampage only lasted 80 seconds because a good guy with a gun confronted the shooter. Instead of fighting the shooter killed himself. The shooter planned to do as much damage as possible but failed. If the word gets out that schools are armed these losers will no longer attack schools, instead they will just most likely off themselves at home. But the media loves these school shootings so they will hide this fact.

12 likes, 6 dislikes
Posted by Jonathan Porter on 12/18/2013 at 9:53 AM

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