@ Duwayne Anderson
You said: This is an oft-repeated lie by Mormon apologists. The Journal of Discourses is published by the LDS Church, it consists almost entirely of the preaching of Mormon "prophets, seers, and revelators," and those prophets said that the Journal of Discourses is "scripture."
I say: Yet if it were scripture that was ratified by the Church.. there would have been a vote on it in General Conference by all the people... and then would have been added to the Doctrine and Covenants. Though there are many truths that are there in the JD.. the church is not bound by its teachings. We can believe that they are true.. we can ask the Holy Ghost for confirmation.. but the people are not held accountable to those teachings. Most of was is taught in the JD.. as far as I am concerned.. are mysteries of the Kingdom of God. It might all be absolute truth.... like the earth being round.. but no one is held accountable to its teachings until confirmed in General Conference.
You said: If the Mormon Church is true, as they assert, why do Mormon apologists feel obligated to water-down the teachings of their prophets, and lie about the significance of what they said?
I say: We also see how those things that we teach are true.. but have nothing to do with salvation.. Like the star named Kolob.. how the Anti-Mormons and critics of the church walk under foot anything that is special. So.. though we need not declare outright what is in the JD as being absolute truth.. then it takes away the power of people to make light of it when we are not obligated to protect it. But mark my word.. there is much truth in those Discourses.. it is up to you to figure out which ones.
I do not like the words.. "The Bible says". The Bible has never said a thing. And one need not be a "homophobic Christian" to use those words.. "The Bible says".
There are prophets, seers, revelators and Apostles who have said everything that has been compiled in the Bible.. the book of books. Men who have either seen God.. spoke with him.. received revelation from him.. or been inspired by him. Some have been taught by him, and been showed marvelous things from him. And each of these men were tasked with spreading the word of God. Whatever that word was. Whatever that idea was. Whatever that commandment was. Whatever that teaching was. There was a mixture of all of these. These are the ones who put the words in the Bible. It is these men who have said that homosexuality is a sin. And they will tell you many other things besides homosexuality are also a sin. They will combine a multitude of sins in a chapter or two or three. So don't think that because the sins are combined.. that the prophet.. or apostle is talking about something else. How convenient is that?
God's only purpose to give us rules, regulations and commandments is so that we can get back to Heaven. It is not his wish to have his children be damned. But it is the children who make the choices.. to be damned. The warnings go out. "Touch the stove.. you will get burnt." But so many make excuses as to why they need not heed the warnings. Just remember that. They are all excuses.
As I have always said.. it is not being gay that is the sin.. it is the acting on it. It is having sex with a member of the same sex. That is the sin. And you know that is exactly what I was saying.
Good for you that you are celibate!! But that was not the image you have been portraying. You have lead me astray with your little deception... but that's fine. I am just happy that you have not bought into the lifestyle of the homosexual. Again.. Good for you!
LoL. talk about a "holier than thou" attitude. You ask questions.. I answer them.. and I have an attitude? Get over myself?? LOL. You are quite a character.
We are definitely at the point in this conversation where the discussion of what the other believes is useless. All I can say in my parting thought is you are not on the path to salvation... but damnation. And that to me is sad.
You think that because you are gay and understand what it is to be gay.. that everyone does. Remember this.. there was a time when the medical community taught that being gay was a "choice". It was a lifestyle choice. They came up with all kinds of things that attributed to a person becoming gay. They played with the wrong doll when growing up, not the right amount of affection from one parent.. too much affection from the other parent. Heck.. there were so many reasons given.. parents who had gay children were being blamed for what they had done to their child. So.. a misconception grew. And when any member of a church.. chooses.. yes.. I said chooses... to be gay.. then acceptance into the fold is not possible. You choose not to conform to the standards. Up until recently... this belief is what motivated people to do what they did. It is no different than if someone chooses to be an adulterer. If you keep on choosing adultery.. then you are not "welcomed" into the fold either. There are rules to be included. If you don't want to follow the rules.. then you don't belong. And the bigger question was.. why do you want to belong? You don't want to follow the rules.. so why belong? Seemed like someone just wanting to cause trouble.
So now.. the medical world has told us.. and many are coming to that understanding.. that being gay.. the attraction to the same sex.. is not a choice. We were told.. first it was a choice.. and now.. it's not a choice. Some are slow to change.
So yes.. hate the sin.. love the sinner. That is the golden rule of sorts. So easy to say.. so hard to feel and do. But the Lord never said it would be easy.
I realize you don't believe that your lifestyle is a sin. I realize that you believe that you can act on your impulses.. and God will still smile upon you. I realize that it is your belief that because you believe on Christ.. that all is forgiven. But.. that is not mine. Your sins CAN be forgiven... not that they are. This sacrifice that Jesus made was not a "hey I can do anything I want and still be saved" card. It is a.. I can be saved.. card. But I have to use it. When the adulterous woman was brought before Jesus.. no he did not condemn her... but what did he say to her? Go and SIN NO MORE!
Every person on this earth who is born has a "natural" man/woman inside them. My natural man wants to sleep and have sex with women all the time. My natural man is carnal and wants things that go against God's laws. I have to overcome. Christ overcame. He did not give into his natural man once. He had to rise above. Had he not chose to be perfect.. then his sacrifice would have meant nothing. Had he chosen not to partake of the bitter cup... we would not have the opportunity to be saved.
So for me... your acting out on you being gay.. which is your natural man.. is the sin. And unless you can see that.. and give that up... you will not be saved in the kingdom of God. Again.. that is my belief and you will tell me that you don't believe that.. and there we will be. So you will continue down your path.
The only way I can believe your beliefs.. is to give up mine.. and visa versa. I believe it is by the grace of God.. that we can be saved. And why is that? Because.. we can not save ourselves. Listen.. Even if I now became like Christ.. and never sinned again. I can not cleanse my book of life and erase what I have done. I can be forgiven of sin and not be punished for it.. but my record is my record. So.. I can not save myself. I still have the blotch on my record and I.. I... can not erase it. The only one who can.. is the Christ. He can erase it. He can make me appear sinless. Through his atoning blood.. he can wipe my slate clean and my book of life becomes pure and white. Then.. and only then.. can I enter the presence of God. I can do nothing to save myself. All my good works.. my praying.. my loving, my serving.. none of that.. in and of itself.. will save me. I don't have the power to raise myself from the dead. I don't have the power to wipe my slate clean. All MY works can not by themselves save me. But without them.. Christ has no reason to save me. If I am not showing him.. that I believe on his words... and to believe on his words means to do as he has asked me to do.. then he will not save me... just because he can. He says.. come follow me. I have to do. If I do nothing.. and do not obey what he has asked me to do.. I have no promise. It is by the Grace of God... it is by his grace.. that he accepts what I could do.. and makes up the difference... and saves me. But if I choose to do nothing.. or not do what I could do... then he will not just save me anyway.
That is the difference between what I believe... and what you believe.
Listen.. if you believed that the Gold plates that all these people saw and witnessed that they saw.. were real.. and if you believed that Joseph Smith.. by the power of God... translated what was written on those Gold plates to what is now called the Book of Mormon.. you would be Mormon. Simple as that. But you don't. So what you think about the gold plates or the pageant or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or the temples or whatever is "Mormon".. doesn't really matter. It won't be the same as what I believe.
But I do believe in those plates. I do believe in the words of all those people who saw them.. held them.. turned the pages... saw the writings on them.. witnessed the many many things they saw and heard.. and wrote down what they saw and heard.
I do believe that Joseph Smith.. a boy at 14 years old.. did have a vision from God the Father and his son Jesus Christ. And I do believe that Joseph was told that he would be an instrument in the hands of God.. to restore.. to bring back to knowledge of mankind.. all the things of God that had been lost.
And from the appearance of the Angel Moroni.. informing Joseph that he would be used to translate the historical and spiritual records of a people that once lived on the American continent... (which in 1830 was considered what we now call North and South America) that he did indeed translate that record. And he then published that record. And that record has gone forth.. starting in a tiny town in NY.. and today.. is now in almost every country of the world. All of this was done in preparation for the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. And mark my word.. You will see the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith all come true. Because the words that Joseph spoke.. came from Jesus Christ himself.
You said: Mormons have no trouble cooling hatred of gays and marriage equality, the same way they got over hating black mormons as priests; mormons hear directly from god -- who likes to channel many of his edicts to them on letterhead stationery from the Justice Dept. The hand of god really does move in mysterious ways, doesn't it.
I say: A few points here. 1. We never hated gays. 2. There is no such thing as marriage equality as marriage is only between a man and woman. Anything else is just a perversion. 3. We never hated black mormons as priests. 4. We do hear directly from God (big G) 5. You are wrong on how God delivers his authoritative commands, the only Justice Dept.. is God's Justice.. and 6.. don't want to leave out #6.. God. (big G) does indeed move in mysterious ways.. to bad you don't realize just how so.
You said: (today it is the gay person that you say can't be saved)
I say: Whoa!!! there big fella. I never said that! You are putting words in my mouth. That statement is totally false. Regroup.
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