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Comment Archives: stories: News: The Wire

Re: “Cripple Creek-Victor School District board recall effort will move forward

Are the recall petitioners pro or anti public sector union supporters?

Posted by Dan C Derby III on 04/21/2019 at 6:08 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Feel free to argue the authenticity not using government authority or resources. A government organization endorsing this presentation is a violation of The Establishment Clause.

6 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by トムソン ジョージ on 04/21/2019 at 11:37 AM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Typo correction 2: The +- sign did not cut/paste into the comment box. The errors are 1 standard deviation. (Mark Fraser)

Arizona: 646 (+-31) years
Oxford: 750 (+-30) years
Zurich: 676 (+-24) years old

2 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Mark Fraser on 04/20/2019 at 7:24 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Typo correction: It was in 1988 (not 1998) that the labs performed the radiocarbon dating measurements. (Mark Fraser)

2 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Mark Fraser on 04/20/2019 at 7:16 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

With all due respect to the historical figure of Jesus, the Shroud of Turin is not an image of anyone from the 1st century. There are numerous facts from the analyses that prove this, but the one that most non-scientists like to question is the accuracy of the radioactive carbon-dating results. (I have an M.S. in Physics with over three decades of research experience in the defense/aerospace community, and I have taught numerous Astronomy courses.)

In 1998, Cardinal Anastasio Ballestrero allowed a small section to be tested for radiocarbon dating by several labs. He announced the results that the shroud was dated from the Middle Ages. These results were published in Nature (1989):

Arizona: 646 31 years
Oxford: 750 30 years
Zrich: 676 24 years old

The results of radiocarbon measurements at Arizona, Oxford and Zurich yield a calibrated calendar age range with at least 95% confidence for the linen of the Shroud of Turin of AD 1260 1390. These results therefore provide conclusive evidence that the linen of the Shroud of Turin is mediaeval.
https://www.shroud.com/nature.htm

Since then there have been several attempts to discount the radiocarbon dating result by claiming that the sample was from a mediaeval repair fragment rather than the image-bearing cloth. These claims have been scientifically refuted:

A Skeptical Response to Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin, Thermochimica Acta (2005)
http://llanoestacado.org/freeinquiry/skeptic/shroud/articles/rogers-ta-response.htm

"Investigating a Dated piece of the Shroud of Turin", Radiocarbon (2010)
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.692.3190&rep=rep1&type=pdf

"Dating the Turin Shroud: An Assessment". Radiocarbon (1990)
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/viewFile/1254/1259

Then there are those who claim that the shroud "has unexplainable characteristics that cannot be reproduced by human means". But in 2009 a professor of organic chemistry reproduced the image using materials and techniques that were available in the Middle Ages.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8291948.stm

I my classes I use climate deniers as teaching moments to demonstrate classic fallacies of logic. In this case proponents of the authenticity of the Shroud rely on cherry-picking to try to prove their belief.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cherry_picking

I am surprised that a government educational institution (USAFA) would appear to be promoting a particular religion, in violation of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause

I am so glad that we have people like Mikey Weinstein (Military Religious Freedom Foundation), who expose any evangelical and fundamentalist proselytizing in the military. I support anyone who is truly American and who supports the principles that the Unites States was founded on.

- Mark Fraser

6 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by ippon on 04/20/2019 at 4:05 PM

Re: “Airman at local Air Force Base is accused of ties to white nationalist groups

If this is true, he should be through. However, on a side note, isn't it a bit problematic to have an anonymous source publicly making accusations against a named individual? It's not mentioned in the article, but if the Air Force is also being prevented from knowing the identity of this person, doesn't that raise an issue of due process and the right to confront one's accuser?

5 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Michael Lindenbusch on 04/20/2019 at 2:42 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

My apologies to all the believers. As a pan (or panentheist, haven't decided yet, but I'm leaning toward the former), I've got no truck with Jesus or your beliefs.

My comment was spontaneous push-back agin the post of Bob Fritch. It was quite Trumpian (trollish) of me to stoop to his level, especially when folks who wear shoes that don't fit might get caught up in it.

Carry on.

3 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Huck Mucus on 04/20/2019 at 2:09 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Uh, duh, guess where the SAMPLE used for carbon dating was taken from??? From where NUNS in the MIDDLE AGES repaired the cloth after one od SATAN'S numetous attempts to destroy the Shtoud!!! God will NOT permit the cult of "science" to PROVE His existence. So tell me, skeptics, how did ANYONE in the Middle Ages "paint" the image on the Shroud in the negative? Uh, duh, photography wasn't invented yet. ADDITIONALLY,scientists have NOW 3-D'd it. Lol. And BTW, you aren't WORTHY to use th ed Dhroud even as toilet paper. Ugh.

0 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by Karen Reid on 04/20/2019 at 8:51 AM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Trying to censor the free exercise of religion during a free period, not during duty, is completely against what the Constitution on our country stands for. It's awesome that any group of people professing any faith can meet in between their schedule of calls, something the author of this article does not understand as they never went to USAFA.

1 like, 3 dislikes
Posted by Nate Cundiff on 04/20/2019 at 8:09 AM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

There really is a dispute over the carbon dating on the Shroud. It was in a huge fire where the silver reliquary melted onto it. It was also handled by humans for centuries--making some contamination of the cloth not only possible, but probable.

The knowlege of Roman crucifixion and flogging is also too impressive for that period. When looking at the Tilma of St. Juan Diego in Mexico, one does see a painting--and the level of artistry expected in such 'relics'. When looking at the Shroud, it is a whole other matter.

While the Tilma of Mary's image matches artistic standards of the day, the Shroud has details Medieval artists did not know--such as the tiny marks made by authentic Roman flagellum. There have also been numerous other studies pointing to authenticity. Pollens belonging to Palestine, the weave of cloth, and numerous other details are consistent with a Jewish burial cloth, but not obvious to a Medieval person.

Examining a full sized replica, one can see the strip of cloth used to tie the body re-sewn onto the length of one side. All these things (and more) are too much for a Medieval 'relic maker' to duplicate.

The carbon dating needs to be cleared up. Instead of splitting one sample between several labs, they really should compare separate samples from all parts of the Shroud. Then, at least, carbon contamination might be ruled out. The image was not made by paint, and is anatomically correct. So, it is definitely connected to a death by crucifixion of a male victim.

As to whether one believes the victim was Jesus and whether the lecture should take place during duty hours--those are different questions.

3 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by Anne Wyckoff on 04/20/2019 at 5:26 AM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

I've added additional information for anyone who is interested:

Summary of Key Facts from the scientists who conducted the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) years back:

TESTS PERFORMED BY STURP
Particle analysis
Chemical analysis
Blood analysis
Photo microscopy
Spectroscopy
X-ray radiography
Infra-red thermography
X-ray fluorescence spectrometry
Photo scans from infrared to ultra-violet
And more

RESULTS:
No inorganic pigments present
No substances manually applied to cloth
No artistic substances are on the cloth
No collagen binder as would be used with paint
Blood tests positive for heme, bile, serum albumin and other blood components. The blood is AB positive with human DNA.

The blood marks seen on the shroud are consistent with a contact transfer to the cloth of blood clot exudates that would have resulted from major wounds inflicted on a man who died in the position of crucifixion. -Dr. Al Adler

IMAGE CHARACTERISTICS
Purely superficial -- penetrates only top 2 micro-fibers. Does not penetrate the cloth.
Yellowing of image is uniform in intensity
No capillary action apparent
No cementing of fibers to each other
No substances between threads
No directionality to image
No outline to image
The image is a negative (essentially like a photographic negative)
Contains 3-D distance information similar to a topographical map.

STURP Conclusion:
"There are no chemical or physical methods known which can account for the totality of the image, nor can any combination of physical, chemical, biological, or medical circumstances explain the image adequately. We can conclude for now that the Shroud image is that of a real human form of a scourged, crucified man. It is not the product of an artist. The blood stains are composed of hemoglobin and also give a positive test for serum albumin."
_______________________________________________________________________________
In summary, the image may have been formed by some sort of radiation energy "burst" when the body of Christ underwent the resurrection on Easter Sunday. Cardiocarbon dating in this situation would not be reliable (the facts about the fire cited above may also contribute). We need to think bigger than our limited human means. There remains much more to the universe than we can perceive with our senses and technology today, let alone understand.

6 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by james T on 04/19/2019 at 9:39 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

I am a Christian but also a university scientist at one of the worlds top centers of learning. I take "science" very very seriously. I expect rigorous science and evidence in all I do. In this spirit, I am always eager to learn more and humbled that there is much in the universe we still do not understand. We do not fully understand the Shroud. But as already summarized above, the evidence is very compelling that it is the burial shroud of Christ. First off, it is far more than a "painting." The 3D properties of the image are beyond anything modern science can explain today - if you are truly sincere about learning the truth, research what is known about the special properties of the encoded image and see for your yourself. No technology on earth, even the finest and most concentrated lasers have been able to recreate it, let alone anything that existing back in he 14th century. Throw in the virtually perfect consistency between the anatomic properties of 3D figure including the injuries, marks, broken bones, and drops of blood....there is no way any artist could forge that (and again, it is not simply a painting, but a 3D code that no science can replicate). And then the pollen, the blood type, and other human proteins that have been extracted from the shroud. And all this just so happens to correspond exactly to Jesus of Nazareth. I can't do justice to all these facts here....if anyone is sincere about learning the truth, research the vast information on the web. As a scientist, I respect radiocarbon dating, but can we truly rely on it to be the be-all-end-all of testing? Think about this: if the God of the universe hung on the cross to die for the sins of mankind, and then was resurrected from bodily to spirit form to return to heaven - essentially transforming his body into supernatural energy, the same energy that created the universe (and I suspect created the unexplained, extraordinary 3D code in the Shroud), do you actually think a simple human test like radiocarbon dating could be 100% reliable? We humans can be quite arrogant and closed to the truth, even when it is right in front of us. This is because sin can cause man to deny the truth and be blinded by our desire to be in control. There is far more evidence for the shroud's authenticity than the reverse. I challenge any unbelievers to take an honest look for themselves. Put away your bias and objectively review the evidence for yourself, rather than these articles that are not giving you the entire picture. Science and faith are not conflict. Rather, science explains our universe that God created and faith is the why and by whom. The God of the Universe so loved man that he was willing to take on human form and suffer literally in the fresh to die for our sins so we could be reunited with his kingdom. Think about that concept for a moment and the profound sacrificial love God must have for us. God is here for all of us if only we would open our hearts and accept his love. Although not required for our faith, the Shroud is likely one of the many concrete earthly belongings Jesus left for us to better understand his profound sacrifice and love for us. Happy Easter Sunday for He is Risen.

8 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by james T on 04/19/2019 at 9:21 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Well stated Alogist. All those scientific facts point squarely toward authenticity but as I have said in every presentation I have ever made my faith does not rest in the Shroud. Nevertheless without the Biblical and historical records, the Shroud would likely be an interesting curiosity. Because it points squarely to Jesus of Nazareth, some people will absolutely bend over backwards in their futile attempts to disprove it. As the late Agnostic Yves Delage said when his own conclusions garnered a similar level of vitriol, "a religious question has been needlessly injected into a problem which in itself is purely scientific, with the result that feelings have run high, and reason has been led astray." When National Geographic's Kenneth Weaver left my name out of his article even though every piece of information he used came through me, he told me it was because I was a Christian and "therefore not objective" ! As I pointed out to him the atheists who have attacked the research are not at all objective in their unbelief.

9 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Kenneth Stevenson on 04/19/2019 at 7:52 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

"Sad reflection on the civility of our society ."

Hi alogist! Read the first post in this thread and get back to me.

1 like, 5 dislikes
Posted by Huck Mucus on 04/19/2019 at 6:50 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

First of all, what a biased article . No mention of the discredited carbon 14 data due to sampling cloth that was repaired with mideavil cotton fibers. No mention of forensic analysis matching a scourged crucified man matching biblical description of Jesus death. No mention NASA technology showing the only image ever found with 3-D information encoded in a negative photographic image and to this day no scientist or physicist can reproduce or give an explanation as to how it came to be . Occupies outer surface of individual linen fibrils front and back images with no paint or pigment. Pollen indigenous to Jerusalem and only Jerusalem. Read the analysis of Barry Schwartz, a Jewish skeptic and member of the STURP team who became convinced of the Shrouds authenticity because of the scientific analysis refuting the validity of the Carbon 14 dating and the research by so many scientists and physicists revealing an image on a linen burial cloth that in 2019 no one has ever been able to reproduce or explain with modern science. I dont need to believe in the Shroud to have faith but the body of scientific analysis since the Carbon 14 evidence is impressive and I think its sad the skeptics dont even want to let anyone hear it and make up their own minds. What are they afraid of and to disparage those who believe in the Shroud by preferring it to toilet paper is very sad. Tell that to the physicists from The Jet Propulsion Laboratory who still cant explain the genesis of the image. At least respect their objective scientific expertise and work, especially when it far exceeds your training and knowledge. Sad reflection on the civility of our society .

22 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by alogist on 04/19/2019 at 6:23 PM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

KENNETH STEVENSON
04/19/2019 AT 8:38 AM

0
DISLIKES
1
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First of all as an Academy graduate myself (class of 1969) a former assistant professor in the English and Fine Arts department and the original spokesman and editor for the Shroud of Turin research project: commonly called STURP, I am amazed at how quickly seemingly educated people will accept the typical sound-bite, talking point media garbage concerning the now discredited carbon 14 testing as the be all and end all of shroud research. It simply amazes me.
As one who has continued multidisciplinary Research into this enigmatic relic for over forty years and authored four books on the subject and edited a fifth I can tell you in point certain that it is not a medieval forgery.
My latest book includes biblical, historical, burial customs and scientific research. Get all the facts for yourself and make an educated decision.




https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1683506073/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1508949041&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=Nazah

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14 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by Kenneth Stevenson on 04/19/2019 at 9:20 AM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Near first Academy graduate myself class of 1969 a former assistant professor in the English and fine Arts department and the original spokesman and editor for the Stratton to in research project commonly called STURP, I am amazed at how quickly seemingly educated people will accept the typical sound talking point media garbage concerning the now this credited carbon 14 testing as the be all and end all of shroud research it amazes me.
As one who has continued multidisciplinary Research into this enigmatic route for over forty years and authored four books on the subject and edited a fifth I can tell you in point certain that it is not a medieval forgery.
My latest book includes biblical historical burial customs and science get the facts for yourself and make an educated decision.




https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1683506073/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1508949041&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=Nazah

14 likes, 6 dislikes
Posted by Kenneth Stevenson on 04/19/2019 at 8:38 AM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Yet another example of fundamentalist Christian favoritism from the AFA... this time with the 'Fake News' shroud of Turin. Not really a surprise since the national leadership worships at the alter of Dominionism and Christian Supremacy and the fake 'science' (early humans riding dinosaurs, etc.) such contrafactual belief systems entail. (Modi's Hindu fundamentalists believe Hindus mastered flight 8,000 years ago and are putting it in their textbooks). As the story points out, although the 'lecture' was ostensibly 'voluntary' it's not that easy for the cadets and, to be allowed on campus at all, it had to be approved by someone in authority. We are in danger of losing our secular democracy... time to wake up!

Oh, and Fritch (see above) is an homophobic bigot. He may try to excuse his disease by saying he's merely expressing his 'sincerely held religious beliefs' but what his religion teaches is 'love the sinner, hate the sin'... he's merely a loudmouthed bigot and a damned poor excuse for a Christian. And, does he have evidence that Barry Fagin is gay or is he merely engaging in gratuitous name calling? Such behaviors used to be called slander or libel but now, after the enlightenment and the general acceptance of sexual diversity such behavior only amount to pissing head-first into a strong wind. Go take a shower Fritch.

12 likes, 12 dislikes
Posted by Marshalldoc on 04/19/2019 at 7:56 AM

Re: “Air Force Academy hosts talk of Shroud of Turin's alleged authenticity

Some jackass named Bob Fritch seems to have no opposing argument or facts. Just pointless, childish name calling.

17 likes, 5 dislikes
Posted by トムソン ジョージ on 04/18/2019 at 11:20 PM

Re: “Diana May tapped for county attorney post in El Paso County

Don't be fooled by her smile ... she has an evil side!

2 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Asher777 on 04/17/2019 at 7:58 PM

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