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Re: “Reader: Another civics lesson, via Obama-era politics

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Jeffrey, now please allow me to retort...


1) Meddling, self-absorbed liberals ponder how they can get the government to intervene on their behalf to force others to fund initiatives and benefits they feel they're "entitled" to.

R- By definition, liberals are not self-absorbed. Personally, I would just like to see billionaires and corporations pay the same percentage of income tax that I do. We wouldnt be having these arguments about national debt or who is going to pay for what.

2) Although they can't explain where/why/how the government has been granted the authority to force the citizenry to purchase a private good and/or commodity under penalty of law, they nevertheless continue under the auspices of "helping others," while claiming health-care is a "right."

R- No one is forced to buy government health insurance via the individual mandate, but individuals are strongly incentivized to have the minimum essential health coverage to avoid a penalty. In the past, emergency rooms were filled with the poor and uninsured and their bills were paid with taxpayers money. Now that money subsidizes their insurance and the costs are spread across a greater size insurance pool. Just like auto insurance, a well-established precedent, you have to buy automobile insurance for your pickup truck, dont you? This is to protect your financial investment in your vehicle, your house, and your bank account when you crash your truck while driving to Walmart.

3) They decide to intrude upon the lives and individual choices of the populace by demanding mandatory, not voluntary, participation in the scheme.

R- See 2) above, and if people had a choice whether to insure their vehicles, many would not, either too self-confident or too poor. When they run their $250 72 Oldsmobuick into your new $50,000 dually, you could sue them, if youd like to pay a lawyer for nothing, which is what you would collect, $0. I bet you wouldnt like that one bit.

4) Their "leader" (cough) makes utterly ridiculous statements like you can keep your policy and/or doctor and that the measure will save families $2,500 annually just so he can create a "legacy" as part of his of social engineering.

R- Their leader was your leader, unless you are an illegal immigrant, well, are you? Can you prove it? Where are your papers?

5) Those insufficiently intelligent/nuanced to recognize such obvious falsehoods soak up the suggestions unquestioningly.

R- Or those insufficiently educated to recognize their arguments use only worn out rhetorical devices and attacks ad hominem, its old stuff, amateurish and crude, like a playground taunt.

6) Dem legislators support the measure many without actually reading it as part of their partisan subservience to party, not principle or consequences.

R- Wow. That sounds familiar, kind of like the ACA repeal that was voted on more than 50 times, no substance, no chance of passing the senate, or your leaders desk, just an exercise in wasting time and taxpayer money.

7) Architects rely on the support of the "stupid" for continued support.

R- You must be talking about Trump voters. Your sentence is also redundant sentence.

8) The measure is passed along completely partisan lines, thus underscoring how inherently flawed it is.

R- see 6). Dj vu all over again. Youre repeating yourself. Out of rhetorical devices?.

9) Predictably, the rollout is a disaster, key aspects are delayed or never implemented, policies are cancelled, premiums skyrocket and insurers leave the exchanges.

R- You predicted that? Probably not. But I can predict what will happen if the AHCA passes as it currently reads, no more Republican majority in congress.

10) Regressives trot out manufactured outrage and faux-indignation that the tire-fire is imploding and is finally repealed replaced by an only slightly less odious meadow muffin.

R- You didnt bring a single cogent argument to the table, just a lot of name calling, provocation, and useless bluster. But in the interest of fairness, here are some supporting arguments from your fellow Republicans:

You know, I think maybe its easier to run on these platitudes, run on a platform like this, said Rep. Don Bacon, R-Neb., when asked by local radio station if Republicans ran on repeal simply to get elected or re-elected.

Rep. Pat Meehan, R-Pa., promised that if elected he would repeal, defund, delay, and dismantle Obamacare. He recently conceded, in an interview with Delaware County Daily Times, that previous repeal efforts were a sham.

Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas, told reporters last Friday that the dozens of repeal votes were cast in the past without any plan for viable legislation. Sometimes youre playing fantasy football and sometimes youre in the real game, Barton told Talking Points Memo. We knew the president, if we could get a repeal bill to his desk, would almost certainly veto it. This time we knew if it got to the presidents desk it would be signed.

Paul Ryan said We were a 10-year opposition party, where being against things was easy to do, adding that his party wasnt prepared to be the governing party.

The assault on ACA was an exercise in cynical politics, and an outright repeal was never on the table. The arguments for repealing it lack substance, kind of like your spitting angry 10 step program.

R. Jones

1 like, 0 dislikes
Posted by rangesaf on 05/28/2017 at 8:18 AM

Re: “Reader: Another civics lesson, via Obama-era politics

Actually, progressives have always had a much better plan: single payer. President Obama modeled the ACA after Governor Romney's healthcare plan for Massachusetts, hoping to placate Republicans. Now that the Republican Party has thoroughly repudiated its own best solution for healthcare, it is no wonder they are boxed into a corner.

2 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Mr. K-- on 05/27/2017 at 6:33 PM

Re: “Reader: Another civics lesson, via Obama-era politics

Funny though even with all the problems and the massive amount of hours trying to kill it, repeal it and defund it no one has come up with a damn thing thats better.

3 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Rocky Smith on 05/26/2017 at 9:21 PM

Re: “Reader: "Make America a Democracy again"

This is off-subject, but I can't find the letters that appear in the May 24th issue of the Indy itself. It used to be that those letters could be found and discussed here online. Now, the only place I can find those letters is to go to the digital issue, and as near as I can figure, there is no place for discussion there either. Any suggestions?

0 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by asawatcher on 05/26/2017 at 2:52 PM

Re: “Reader: "Make America a Democracy again"

Not sure Elaine knows what an oligarchy is, or the difference between a representative democracy and a republic.

0 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by Odin on 05/26/2017 at 1:53 PM

Re: “Reader: "Make America a Democracy again"

No don it isnt pushed upon you any more than it is pushed upon us. fact is change is good when it helps the general population, and not so good when it effects just a specific income slot. sure you will always have people that take advantage of the system but you dont go and mess over the hard working american tax payers to get at these people.

here is one we all know.........The needs of the many out weight the needs of the few.

4 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Jay Whynotaskme on 05/26/2017 at 12:29 PM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

This is the insipid garbage CSIndy insists on publishing? And you wonder why this country is screwed.

0 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by karinkdf82 on 05/26/2017 at 3:44 AM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

Jim Harper you nothing but an overgrown child that never got disciplined. Ask Jack Phillips up in Denver, he choose to refuse service to people that he did not agree with based on faith. He got punished by the state. They have yet to demand a Conservative Christian pastor to marry a couple...but that is coming. You can me a liar, but you guys more so in order to impose your childish and dare I say wicked and vile agenda on the of rest of us.

0 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Don McCullen on 05/25/2017 at 10:18 PM

Re: “Reader: "Make America a Democracy again"

Progressives have been doing a better job at phrases that Conservatives have...and done it much longer. Elanie was projecting...not necessary lying.

1 like, 3 dislikes
Posted by Don McCullen on 05/25/2017 at 9:53 PM

Re: “Reader: "Make America a Democracy again"

Don sounds like a result of the 'moral majority' who has spent years claiming liberals are all evil.
Conservatives love to use phrases that are actually describing themselves. Elaine ain't lying.

6 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by TruB on 05/25/2017 at 12:14 AM

Re: “Reader: "Make America a Democracy again"

Elaine, you just projecting the hate and bully tactics onto us. You just don't want to push back on your goals to fundamentally transform America. The real Oligarchy are those who push the progressive agenda on those who oppose it...especially unaccountable judges and those who want us to affirm the sins that the progressives what to impose on people like me who oppose it. The left has been good at projecting their evil on their enemies.

5 likes, 13 dislikes
Posted by Don McCullen on 05/24/2017 at 3:50 PM

Re: “Reader: A civics lesson courtesy of American politics

You forgot 2.5: Bill is sneaked in to must-pass legislation as a rider.

2 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by jy3 on 05/23/2017 at 12:01 PM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

Yes Clearly seeing it With the freedom comes responsibility. You cant yell fire in crowded room. It hurts others. Also you should not talk about your religion and expect respect if your not willing to here others and afford them the same respect. Freedom of speech is granted to all of us not just those that claim to be Christian for there own benefit.

5 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by Rocky Smith on 05/22/2017 at 2:27 PM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

There's really no such thing as free speech. What you say and where you choose to say it can cost you plenty.

3 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by UCanSeeClearlyNow on 05/21/2017 at 4:32 PM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

I noticed that Don McCullen lies quite a bit and claims to be a Christian! Hilarious!
"Progressivism is the threat of the day. They don't want us to push our faith on them but they have no problem pushing it on us...and their friends and allies approve." -- absolutely false.

"We have to bake LGBT wedding cakes and support and bless their LGBT weddings." -- a business does. Welcome to America. No LGBT can walk into a church and demand a specific Christian bake them a cake.

"Also we have to pay for abortions for women what act like harlots, and affirm their decition to abort cause after all they are women and them some. Never mind that half or more than half of the pre born babies that are snuffed are GIRLS!!! But the woman's loose libido is far more important...just look at Cosmo and you will see what I mean. They may not like seeing nude men but they love to talk dirty. Unlike the guys who do love to look at the T&A...or not if you go with Maxim. " -- total bullshit lie. You don't spend one penny on anyone's abortion. You sir, are not a Christian.

7 likes, 0 dislikes
Posted by jimhinco on 05/21/2017 at 9:10 AM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

"They [progressives] expect us to shut up..."

Yet, here you are raving and ranting to your heart's content. This must be a new definition of the phrase "shut up" that has not made it into the dictionary yet.

"...and they [progressives] get to act like animals."

For examples, progressives have paid good money to provide you with this free forum to air your imaginary grievances and gratuitous insults.

8 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Mr. K-- on 05/20/2017 at 9:11 AM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

I have some question's Mr. McCullen You say in a response that the left is pushing for a" National Police Force" Dont we already have that? Its called the Justice dept they are the ones with the task to protect us from misuse of that Constitution that you bring up.Is it not the document that gives us the right to practice or not practice any religion in any way we want? I was under the thought our founding Fathers were escaping persecution when that was added to the document that started this great Country. So please explain how peoples own personal beliefs are a threat to that document? Its pretty clear to me its not. I consider myself a Christian man and when I was young the Bible I read said Jesus was crucified for fighting persecution from the Church and Leaders of that day and time.One reason I dont go to Church any more is it seems to contradict what Jesus was trying to teach us. So please explain to me and if you cant maybe your Pastor can. How can a Christian Church or Christian organization preach exclusion, damnation and hate when all Christ taught was Love and inclusion? I would really like to know where in Jesus's words did he say certain people were not welcome. I understood him as saying all who seek him were welcomed.

8 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Rocky Smith on 05/19/2017 at 10:20 PM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

"Tom, keep on speaking out. I don't necessary always agree, but the way these leftists talk they have an agenda and in the long run they will discriminate against anyone who does not uphold their Progressive ideals and faith."
Our agenda is getting you to leave us alone. You don't get to push your religious doctrines on us and treat us as subhuman just because your dogma says we're all sinners (but you're saved).

"Progressivism is the threat of the day."
Spoken like a true fearmonger. Life involves change, pal - there is no choice but to progress. That which does not adapt WILL DIE eventually. You don't have to embrace change but don't expect us to be sympathetic when you whine about it.

"They don't want us to push our faith on them but they have no problem pushing it on us...and their friends and allies approve."
None of us are saying you can't worship your god or pray or follow his commandments for yourselves. We're not asking you to change what you believe for yourselves (if you don't like gay marriage, fine, don't marry someone the same sex as you - nobody's going to force you. If you don't like abortions, don't ever have one. Don't like punk hair colors? Don't dye your hair). We just don't want to be forced to conform to your beliefs in a legal setting when we don't share them. The First Amendment even prohibits this. What's the problem? Trying to legislate your beliefs onto others is like saying "I'm on a diet, so you can't have that chocolate cake." No. It's your diet, not mine.

"We have to bake LGBT wedding cakes and support and bless their LGBT weddings."
1) nobody's forcing any church to perform gay weddings. There are some Christian denominations that welcome gays, and I'm pretty sure most gay people who want to get married will be happy to go where they're actually welcomed.
2) Selling someone a cake does not mean you condone their marriage any more than selling guns means you condoned a murder and armed robbery by the person you sold a gun to. If you can't bring yourself to do your job fairly and equally, then keep YOUR religious limitations in mind, and find a different job. Don't expect the world to conform to YOU because you believe your religion forbids you something. Where in the bible does it say "thou shalt not bake cakes for gays or do them any kind of service", anyway? Is it by the passage that says you can't wear mixed fiber clothing, or the one that says you can't eat pork or rabbit or shrimp?
3) you might have to legally acknowledge a gay couple, but that doesn't mean you must approve of the relationship. It means you accept it - however grudgingly - like property taxes and car insurance. I don't approve of some of my straight friends' relationships but I understand that what they do is NOT MY BUSINESS and not my choice.
4) the whole "waaaah we have to bake cakes for gay people" thing sounds SO much like the places in the 1950s that didn't want to serve "colored" people, it's just crazy. I guess you missed a lot of the deeper meaning in the parable of the good Samaritan. Here's a hint: Samaritans and Jews HATED each other, it was a deep loathing that probably rivaled that between Palestinians and Israelis today. But Jesus advised treating those you hate with respect and care, and to go the extra mile for them. He even SAID to do that. That which you do for the least of them, you do for him. Love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. If he asks you to go with him one mile, go two. He wasn't asking for proof of income and need when he fed the 5,000 - everyone got some, didn't they? (wow, Jesus sounds a lot like some communist hippie...) But, American Evangelical Christians fail MISERABLY at this all the time. They're the ones asking if the little children REALLY DESERVE the cup of cold water, or of the poor really deserve to be given anything at all. No doubt they'd want a confession of faith from the Samaritan and to make sure he's not gay, before they take him back to the hotel and bandage him. It's cruel and sick, a pathologically psychopathic twist of Jesus' best teachings on kindness.

"Also we have to pay for abortions for women what act like harlots, and affirm their decition to abort cause after all they are women and them some. Never mind that half or more than half of the pre born babies that are snuffed are GIRLS!!! But the woman's loose libido is far more important...just look at Cosmo and you will see what I mean. They may not like seeing nude men but they love to talk dirty. Unlike the guys who do love to look at the T&A...or not if you go with Maxim."
Ahh this old red herring. Completely ignoring, once again, the actual statistics of who gets abortions.... that over 60% who get an abortion are in a committed relationship (40% are outright married), that 3/4 of them already have children (and 50% have more than one), that around two thirds of them WERE USING birth control when they got pregnant because no form of birth control including tubal ligation is 100% effective. Almost nobody aborts because they don't want a girl here, either. That's a very east-Asian thing, and it's culturally related to how girls are seen as lesser value than boys.
Hey, how's Colorado's birth control program doing for ya? It reduced the abortion rate in this state by a whopping 42%! I think someone estimated that it was a $6 savings in maternity and food stamp costs for every single dollar spent on the birth control program! Don't try to tell me that's not a victory! (at least if you're just anti-abortion. But if your goal is just to force people not to have sex so they can abide by your religious morality regardless of whether they're believers.....)
I love how you brought up "women's" loose libido, too. What about men? Don't men have some kind of responsibility for their own chastity, or are we really meant to be our brother's keeper? Even in the Bible, men have been blaming women since Adam. God asks what happened, and Adam tries to combo-blame both God and Eve by saying "the woman YOU gave me, told me to eat this" as if he didn't have a choice! Tale as old as time, blame the woman for everything and ignore your own choices... leave her with as many consequences as you can, never take any personal responsibility for your own bad decisions.
Also, God has never said he was against abortion. Sure, "don't murder", blah blah blah, but the problem is, the bible actually explicitly says that a human life begins at the first breath. Unborn fetuses are treated like PROPERTY in the Bible, not like people. The punishment in Leviticus for causing miscarriage by striking a pregnant woman, is not the death of the offender like it is for murder - it's a FEE. When a woman is put to test for infidelity in the Bible, the "bitter waters" cause a miscarriage - an ABORTION! God also killed plenty of babies in utero, what with all the pregnant women being ripped open... so I don't think he really cares that much about fetuses.
Oh yeah, and then there's the fact that *your religious book* is what's telling you it's immoral to have sex outside marriage/for pleasure. Guess what, other people aren't bound by your religious teachings! Get it through your head... stop pushing your religion on others and forcing them to conform to your religious morals! Two adults having sex is between those two people. They shouldn't have to have the approval of a church if they haven't chosen to partake in that religion.

"They expect us to shut up and they get to act like animals. This is why we need to enact common sense into our culture and government and yes a lot of that does come from God's Law."
Shutting up is necessary in order to LISTEN. So if you're not interested in listening I guess it makes sense that you're offended by the idea of being quiet for a bit.
Last I checked, we still have non-religious laws against murder, theft and such, and people who do stuff like that can still be arrested. No need to be so dramatic. If I were an animal I probably wouldn't be wasting my time typing this.
Have you ever heard of the Code of Hammurabi? One of the first written law books in the world. Predates the written Bible, including the Pentateuch, by quite a bit (it may have been written around the time of Abraham, or before; if Moses wrote the Pentateuch, as is claimed, then Genesis through Deuteronomy came significantly after). The Code has those same basic principles about murder and theft being crimes, so that makes it a pre-Judaic code of law, which means that basic ethics definitely didn't start with recorded Christianity OR Judaism. Interestingly, murder and theft and such seem to be frowned on in most cultures, including those that never had any contact with Judeo-Christian peoples. It's a fairly universal thing for humans - even the ones who are "too primitive" to wear clothing - to agree that killing each other is bad.
Your "common sense" honestly seems pretty crazy to me. You're claiming a lot of things that you just have no evidence for and including a lot of talking points that either don't make sense, aren't Biblical (but are somehow frequently brought up in Evangelical circles), or are just flat unproveable.

"Jane O'Halloran is not your friend...she is your enemy. Sorry for all the crap you had to go through Jane but that does not give you an excuse to push your progressiveism on the rest of us...at least not without a fight."
There's another common fearmonger-Faux News tactic, painting the person you're disagreeing with as the ENEMY. I'm nobody's enemy. I think you're ill advised, sadly misinformed and have been hoodwinked into thinking you're under attack because we're not allowing you to inject religion unconstitutionally into law... but you're not my enemy. (I can't really blame you... if your talking heads are constantly telling you you're persecuted, under attack and a martyr-to-be at any moment, I guess it's just a matter of time until you start believing it.) You still have the right to believe as you please, for yourself. I'm not trying to take your Bible away from you (please. Keep it. READ it and try comprehending it better, maybe. Look into that sermon on the mount stuff - there's some good stuff in there - and take note how BADLY that aligns with Evangelical politics... then consider that anyone who's trying to sell you that distinctively twisted Evangelical political angle may be incorrect or deliberately deceptive about some of the "facts" they're selling you. Ask yourself what they might have to gain, if they ARE deceiving you. Learn to think for yourself!)
No, actually, I don't care if you stay Christian or not. I don't care what your beliefs are as long as you keep them to yourself. I'm just trying to stop you from pushing me into a Christianized Burqa, pal - there's a reason a lot of us joke about Evangelicals being basically the Taliban with a Bible instead of a Koran. As long as you keep trying to turn this country into a white-straight-Christians-only-everyone-else-get-out nation, I will keep fighting for the FREEDOMS of people to hold their OWN beliefs and live by them, and showing actual real-life compassion to other people who are different from me. I know there are some avowed Christians who also fight this fight. Let people be free to do as they choose, and God - if he's there - be the judge of who the real sinner is. Let him establish his own kingdom on earth. Humans are far too power-hungry - ESPECIALLY church leaders, as we've seen time and again with sex scandals and ripping off people by telling them they can buy their way to heaven and the cruel fruits of the lies of Prosperity Gospel that are now spreading their nasty seeds through Evangelicalism, telling the poor and the sick they deserve to suffer and miss out on basics, in direct contradiction to Jesus' own words.

12 likes, 3 dislikes
Posted by Jane O'Halloran on 05/19/2017 at 2:32 PM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

Religion is not dying out, but what is happening that is that Islam is growing with the approval of the Progressives, or they flat out just don't care...cause if they did they would be going after them as much as they do the so called "Christian Right."

Progressiveism I dare say is a religion in itself and like Islam it is both political and religious. Islam however has its standing army, and the Progressives really need their own. They can't rely on the UN or the local police and that is one reason why I think the left is pushing for a national police force. A force that will answer to the progressives and nobody else...including our Constitution of the United States of America. Progressiveism's real goal is to replace God and his Church with Man's "State." The State being Big Centralized Government who feels its need to shape the culture in its vision and image.

Christianity is on the decline for many reasons. Many of those reason are their own fault (calling out what the Bible calls sin is NOT one of them), BUT make no mistake the left declared war on that respected faith a long time ago and too many Christians did not take the threat seriously. Humanist and leftist John J. Dumphy said it best with these quotes from his now well guarded piece "A Religion for a New Age."

"I am convinced that the battle for humankinds future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. There teachers must embody the same selfless dedication of the most rabid fundamentalist preacher, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level preschool, daycare, or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism, resplendent in its promise of a world in which the never-realized Christian ideal of love thy neighbor will finally be achieved.

Years later Dumphy stated this; "Have I mellowed over the past 11 years? Of course, who hasn't? But have I repudiated or even questioned the basic tenets of 'A Religion For A New Age'? No, nor can I envision myself ever doing so. How do I respond to the fundamentalists who are so incensed by the essay? If they have the decency to confront me to my face instead of sending anonymous hate-letters, I usually say something to the effect that Pat Buchanan was right at the 1992 Republican National Convention when he stated that a cultural civil war rages across America. While the struggle is certainly quite complex and multifaceted, I continue, a significant aspect of it is comprised of the conflict between the totalitarian Christianity of the Radical Right and the force of humanism. And then I add, 'But here's something that Mr. Buchanan neglected to mention in his address: humanism is going to win."

And Dumphy is being proved right, but It is not just humanism that is winning the day it's only a subcategory of the overall Progressive worldview. So let me rephrase what Dumphy said; What Patrick Bunchanan failed to mention is that Progressiveism is going to win...no matter how much he and his right wing ilk may the to push back on our agenda for the human race.

But in the end; it is that rotting corpse of Christianity eventually will love its neighbor...it just will not give you the license to sin as progressiveism does. The license to sin however will have a cost...and that cost will eventually be Personal Liberty and Freedom. Don't think for one minute that once Progressiveism enemies are long gone (should it ever happen), that they will be living happy ever after. No, cause the progressive left will turn on their own. If you act like animals, think your animals, you will fight and DIE like animals. They need to hunt...its in their blood and instinct. The eventually extermination of the human race is Lucifer's (i.e. the Devil) long term goal.

0 likes, 14 dislikes
Posted by Don McCullen on 05/19/2017 at 11:56 AM

Re: “Reader: Free speech is for everyone except Christians

sorry religious freaks... nobody under 60 is that into you. you will continue to lose in courts, in attendance and on the true morality stage. time will prove the fallacy of all religions. a natural act is determined by nature, not your fairy tale book. how about helping the homeless (poor), helping those that suffer (refugees)?? isn't this what your jesus preached... you pretend religious hypocrites are disgusting.

Religion...the only mental disease that actively seeks to replicate itself in another host.

12 likes, 6 dislikes
Posted by happyfew on 05/19/2017 at 11:24 AM

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